After all these pages it's time to look up the difference between rhetoric and logic. Right or wrong poor David has clung to Aristotle's rules of argument. Most of the diatribe would be quickly kicked out of any formal debate. That does not prove either point, however it shows all of you have only been doing what I call "GUN TALK MASTERBATION". That's why I just registered, I love it. Keep it up.
Just so I have this right here's the argument as I understand it.
C3 is the preferred carry method for less experienced shooters (to account for poor handling practices).
We expect these less experienced/borderline unsafe gun owners (who don't practice) to properly perform the manual of arms during administrative handling so that they never inadvertently chamber a round by getting the sequence of events wrong (something we have viral videos of "experienced" shooters screwing up). The ingrained mindset of "chamber's empty" will not cause these less experienced/less safe shooters to ND at inconvenient moments due to their errors in sequence of operation.
These less experienced shooters are somehow as fast as or faster and error free with C3 vs. C1 (presumably while maintaining accuracy) which I've personally seen experienced shooters screw up routinely in the high pressure () world of USPSA shooting. When forced to start in C3 by stage design shooters of all levels are measurably slower (with a timer) when they do get it right but none of that will happen to less experienced shooters in a fight for their life.
We have anecdotal evidence and SME testimony in this thread of numerous marginally trained (military) individuals screwing C3 up and ND'ing but that isn't relevant to civilians. We have SME's telling us that none of the high level units they deal with use C3 but it's OK because the Israelis use it (I'm starting to get the impression that "proven Israeli combat techniques" isn't far from "proven Spetznas techniques").
Like others have said, if I had to carry a gun that sucks and wasn't safe to carry C1, then C3 it is, or if I had to carry sans holster. My reasons for not carrying C3 ever again are simple. It's factually slower than C1, my guns don't suck and I have holsters.
Life reason #1- My first post in this thread that I deleted was a rather long one about an incident that happened to an older gentleman I know. The short version is his vehicle was trapped between a car that had stopped in the middle of the road with two parked cars on either side and another driver had pulled behind him. He asked the driver politely to move his car so he could go by and the driver who was a full blown meth head turned, starting swearing and coming at his vehicle threatening him. Being trapped and feeling in fear for his safety, he pulled the little Phoenix Arms .22lr semi auto out of his coat pocket, racked the slide and pointed it at the tweaker just before he was in reach of the car. Tweaker stopped, jumped in his car and sped off. C3 worked for this guy this time, right? Later that night, remembering his pistol was loaded which he did not feel comfortable carrying that way, he got it outta his coat pocket and discovered that he had short stroked it and it had not chambered a round. Sure it was a suck fest gun, but if it had been loaded in an administrative moment instead of a tactical one, it would've been ready to go. Thankfully he didn't have to pull the trigger, a fact that is not lost on this older gentleman.
Life lesson #2- When my wife and I were engaged, we were in town with our 15 month old niece. Back then I was in full newb derp mode, I mexican carried(AIWB with no holster) a Glock 19 C3. We were headed back to my truck, middle of the day summer time, and I was carrying the baby in my left arm when I was caught off guard by a drug addict asking for spare change and cigarettes. He got a little too close for comfort before I was able to react. He was all up in my shit turning my OODA loop to mince meat. He walked away when I told him no spare change or cigs, but if the situation would've turned ugly my only way to get the pistol out and in fighting condition would've been to either a) drop the baby on the asphalt while drawing and rack the slide, or b) hand the baby off to my soon to be wife and try to get it going. Neither of which is acceptable. Sure my situational awareness should have been better, but I was 22 and let's face it, we all go to white probably more than we'd like to admit. I bought holster and began carrying C1 from then on.
The "ideal" carry method for less experienced shooters is NONE.Originally Posted by Lomshek
I wish we lived in a nation where every gun owner was safe enough to carry with a loaded chamber,or knew their limitations enough to not bother.
We dont.
Whats the training solution to the problem of an individual uninterested in dedicated practice yet wishes to exercise their right to carry?
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
So do you follow this advice? What is less experienced? Less experienced than you, less experienced than me, or less experienced than say, SLG, Sean M, Chuck Haggard, KevinB or nyeti?
Last edited by Casual Friday; 02-18-2015 at 01:32 PM.
We let them carry. You know how you hear about all those people who shoot themselves in states with no training requirement vis a vis the states with training requirements? Oh, wait, we don't.
How many hours do you have, GardoneVT? You still haven't answered. You're big on formal training, so who have you trained with?
Buy a G19 with a decent holster and carry C1...
For the Soccer Mom who has a gun in a purse without a proper holster I can understand C3 (though I cannot understand the thought process that leads to that situation...)
My argument is for 99.9% of folks, a proper holster and C1 carry is safer, quicker and preferable than C3 carry.
Kevin S. Boland
Director of R&D
Law Tactical LLC
www.lawtactical.com
kevin@lawtactical.com
407-451-4544
Where's the applause smiley!
List of advantages of C3 carry
1. The weapon goes click instead of bang when the trigger is pulled.
That is it. I haven't seen anyone in this thread defending or advocating anything else. I'm not sure how they would. When we choose to carry in C3, we make a fundamental choice to lower our level of defensive readiness. The question, and what David seems to be arguing, is the degree to which it lowers it. He seems to be arguing that it's almost nil, which I don't agree with.
The 'empty chamber mentality' and 'There are more ND's with C3' arguments, while having a good deal of experience and evidence behind them, are specious. The weapon going click instead of bang allows for one mistake. It is certainly possible to make more than one and ND, but you do have that one.
Absolutely not, IMO. No one is advocating allowing for poor handling practices that I've seen. Poor handling practices will end in a potentially fatal accident regardless of the condition of the chamber. C3 allows for SNAFU, not FUBARed handling.
It's slower but people shoot themselves in the leg less. I've never had an ND. I've never been in a car accident either. Many people might see that as a poor analogy, as you can't control what another driver does, and the reaction times are short. You cannot control what the people around you do, and the stress you may be going under in your day to day life.
It's a valid choice.
For what, a strawman argument? I never said a word about laws.
My question is a basic one. We want people to carry more, as American citizens. At the same time only a small fraction will dedicate themselves to training.
People uninterested in safe gun handling results in this:
http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/sto...w0KKyD0_O563rA
Are people being perforated at an alarming rate? No. If its all the same, however, maybe we should work to avoid live ammo flying around public eateries. We return to the question thus; whats the best way to teach a casual gun owner how to tote their heater?
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
