Israeli carry - a short experiment

[LittleLebowski]

This is the most mind numbing thread we have had in a while.

The mental equivalent of wading through the La Brea tarpits.

[Chuck Haggard]

I lost track Dave because we used to work 50-60 shootings a year, times working for 28 years. I would have kept hard numbers if I knew you were going to call me out on it.

Your logical twists are getting to be pretty epic. Are you saying one should somehow emulate the non training, incompetent, and crappy performance of gangbangers trying to kill unarmed victims?
Do you not also see that lessons learned on what NOT to do? On how things go badly for people when they do carry C3 with little to no training, the very people you might advocate carry a gun that way "because safer"?

If one is so well trained that they can pull off a draw and getting hits from C3 as fast as from C1, then why pray tell are they not well trained enough to carry the gun C1?

Why would anyone want to work harder to get good at carrying a gun in a disadvantaged condition?

People running shotguns is in no way the same thing.

[Byron]

This is the most mind numbing thread we have had in a while.

I don't think you have any actual training in mind numbing. Until you do, it's probably too difficult for you to understand that mind numbing can be better than mind sensitizing.

[T.Stahl]

This is the most mind numbing thread we have had in a while.

I am truly sorry about that and hope not to get banned for starting it.

[LittleLebowski]

I am truly sorry about that and hope not to get banned for starting it.

We don't operate like that here but this thread is no longer productive.

[LittleLebowski]

Thread reopened on request of an SME.

[Le Français]

Cycling the slide doesn't just take time; it also takes space (which may not be available in a fight) and if both hands are used it precludes the use of a bicep or wrist tie or some other control hold with the support hand.

[KevinB]

Thanks LLB.

I asked to re-open the thread as I have some data I want to add.

A lot of it is years old - however still relevant to the point of discussion.

Coming from the Canadian Forces where the issued handgun is a Browning Hi-Power (well Inglis No2 Mk1* to be exact) [SOF eventually started to use SIG P226, and later P226R guns but I digress] . Standard carry of the handgun was C3 for GPF, mainly as at the time, holsters used ranged from Poor to Abysmal.
Through back to the 90's Upon commencing train ups - handgun issued personnel (I was one) started to want to carry C1 - as training showed that getting the handgun out of the then issue holster was next to impossible - let alone then try to chamber a round.
Some Uncle Mike Drop Leg Holsters where procured - and at least it was possible to get at the gun in a reasonable manner -- as mostly for either domestic or foreign missions the reason your going to a secondary was that your primary was not functioning, and you had a close target -- a target that you may also be involved in a close contact with and a second hand was not able to be used to ready the weapon. I don't have the data in front of me - mainly as its about 21 years ago.
Even with two hands - the shooters where easily 3/4 of a second faster to engage the target (IPSC Head) with 2 rounds at 5m from the holster C1 (and this is with the pitiful Inglis Thumb Safety, not some of the better aftermarket ones), over drawing (same shooters and holsters) than those drawings and making the gun ready first before engaging.
Failures to fully cycle the gun occured as well when then time constraint was tightened - as well as in FoF (empty gun not sim) the accosted person never managed to get a round chambered in C3 - whereas if the user botched the safety - he still was able to slide his thumb back up and make a proper attempt to do it.

Jump Forward to the GWOT - In the same units, Weapons (pistol, carbine, LMG) that where "cleared" and carried C3 had over a 300% increase in ND's over those in C1 [I tracked data on ND's for as bit] and personally almost had my foot shot off in Afghan due to a 'empty' breaching shotgun.
The unfortunate reality is that the vast number of folks do not treat weapons like they are loaded at all times, and the unloaded chamber mentality causes a greater number of folks to be negligent with that carry manner than if they know they have readied weapon.

When I was contracting - there was a young Marine (well former Marine) who lobbied the PM, then RSO for the Embassy Static Guards to carry C1 with their long guns, due to the fact that under stress it was 1) Longer 2) Guaranteed to work. To prove his point he ran timed drills simulating a vehicle and assailants trying to enter -- when given very tight time requirements. The C3 folks had outrageous times, and also a number of failures to engage due to the issue with the cycling

Also when contracting in Iraq, I saw two very different camps on weapons handling - some folks after coming back to our villa would unload their weapons, while others would leave them hot (which I could never fathom as this was not in a secure area) - but the "cleared gun" folks had an infinite number of ND's - mainly as we never saw an ND with the C1 folks).

I'm clearly not a C3 guy - and while I do understand some weapons are really not suitable for C1, and thus in those circumstances that C3 is preferable - but unless that is required - the prefer option HAS to be C1.

[BaiHu]

This is the longest, short experiment I've ever seen.

David,

I have to ask you a few questions:

If there is a class who's stated goal is to get someone to draw, rack and fire 3 rounds at a head target of 'X' size at a distance of 'Y' in 1.5 seconds, why doesn't this class just teach people how to stop time and rewind it back to before the attack and put themselves behind the attacker?

We're looking at the following:

Draw to first shot: 0.9 (doable for many people, but a class with this stated goal?)
Shot 2 0.3 (easily doable)
Shot 3 0.3 (easily doable)
Total time: 1.5

When I look at Mr_White's stats for a 3.67 FAST, post #1143 link, I see:

3.67: 1.07, .35 / 1.55 / .23, .24, .23

So you're saying someone teaches to a group of C3 shooters to draw and rack in almost half the time Mr_White performs his slide lock reload to a 'body' target, yet these guys get their first head shot on board in less time?

How big is the head?

How far is this head from the shooter?

I'm not Sally Shooting Statistician, but I don't know a lot of people on this board of professionals that can average a 1.55 emergency/slide lock reload, so how is there a class of these guys learning to do this from C3? Why aren't they on YouTube? David Letterman? Stan Lee's Superhumans?

[David S.]

Thinking of Summit, IIRC their stated goal was that at the end of the class the shooter is to be able to draw from an emopty chamber and put three rounds into the head of the target in 1.5 seconds. Not too slow, IMO.

Impressive. I would really like to see that.

Cheers,
D