When to get involved.

[Paul]

A lot of cops have been hurt or killed by getting in the middle of a DV, with and without appropriate amounts of backup. A situation like this, only in a apartment, almost cost me my life and career. It's complacency and/or a hero mentality overriding common sense.

One of the big qualifying questions in this scenario has been missed up to this point. Is anyone in the car with me?

What about utilizing the car as a tool?

Regardless of the answer to the having company question, is there anything wrong with just hanging up the gas pump, getting in the car, and using technology to put a lot of distance between you and the problem? Even if you're going to just be a good witness, what's wrong with moving the car to the other side of the parking lot, leaving the engine running and in gear, and having the car angled towards an escape route?

[Chance]

My rule: if I see an argument intense enough that people are screaming in one another's face, I call the cops and move to a safe place where I can observe (hopefully, close enough that camera phone video is intelligible) and wait for the police. The only time I would get involved is if someone were injured, and the (presumable) bad person fled the scene, where it was safe to render aid. Like Chuck said, unless you're in uniform, you're going to appear to be part of the problem.

This may make me sound like a coward, but I would rather be struck with the guilt of, "What if I had..." than have my family suffer the devastating effects of me making a bad decision in the heat of the moment. Mike Pannone made an absolutely phenomenal post in a Gunfighter Moment from Soldier Systems, about how your decisions affect your entire family. He was focusing on women choosing not to carry for protection, but his point is applicable to anyone:

If someone beats, rapes or murders you, you alone feel the physical pain but the anguish is shared by everyone you love for their lifetime. If you are killed your children will always wonder what life would be like if mom were there or cry at their weddings because you were not there to share the joy. Your husband would wonder what that dream vacation with the kids would have been like or how you would have grown old together and spoiled the grandkids. Your family would mourn silently every time there was a gathering with the most obvious presence being your absence.

My family is my one and only priority in any, and all, situations. So, I don't get involved.

GardoneVT nailed it with regards to the mindset of domestic violence victims. The Gift of Fear is also excellent insight into this sort of thing.

[okie john]

Thanks for sharing that.

Real world experiences like that help to alleviate the feeling of "guilt" for not "doing something" in the OP's scenario.

I'm better prepared after having read your post.

This.

About 15 years ago, I was stuck in traffic on a busy street in Seattle. As I sat there with several dozen other drivers who were also stuck, we got to watch a man beat a woman on the sidewalk maybe 20 yards away. He had her in an arm lock and was burning her with a cigarette as a small child tried to push them apart. She was clearly being hurt, but I didn't feel that her life or the life of the child were sufficiently at risk to bail out of my truck and sort things out with a pistol. I didn't have a cell phone in those days, so I just had to sit there, watch, and do nothing.

I still feel horrible about it.


Okie John

[Mr_White]

Hypothetical scenario. You're at the gas station filling your car. A woman pulls her car to a nearby pump and starts to fill her car. A man driving a van pulls into the parking lot, stops next to the woman's vehicle, exits, and the man and woman start arguing. It appears that the man and woman know each other. The argument escalates to a shoving match and the man grabs the woman and throws her on the ground. She stands up and the man and woman start arguing again.

What do you do? Why and how are you going to do it?

I stopped reading right here and will answer your question, then I'll go read the rest of the thread.

I'd drive away immediately and call the police. If something were blocking my car from leaving right away (I have to go inside to pay still, or a vehicle is blocking mine, or my fueling isn't finished) then I'd lock my car and leave on foot and call the police.

I'd leave because I'm not willing to pay the potential costs of making it my business, based on the situation as you described it. It is entirely likely to be a self-manufactured dumb problem anyway.

[Wondering Beard]

What about utilizing the car as a tool?

Regardless of the answer to the having company question, is there anything wrong with just hanging up the gas pump, getting in the car, and using technology to put a lot of distance between you and the problem? Even if you're going to just be a good witness, what's wrong with moving the car to the other side of the parking lot, leaving the engine running and in gear, and having the car angled towards an escape route?

The amount of time it takes?

I'm far from an expert but having to take my eyes off them (since I have no idea whether one of them might get beat up or stabbed, or whether either or both might start pulling guns) in order to get to my car, look around so as not to run into other cars, park in a different spot and then get on 911 might just take too long. It might make more sense to walk away from my car, towards the mini mart/cashier, as I get on the horn with the police.

[KevinB]

Call 911 and record the incident on your dashcam (LLB got me hooked on them a few years ago), even [maybe especially] in a personal vehiclethey are must have items these days.
As everyone has pretty much mentioned - you never want to go solo, and unless your wearing a uniform you have no duty of care, so it's all on you as to what your "go button" is for events.

Now it's easy to be "rational" behind/infront of the keyboard and say "I won't" but you will see things and want to help -- and it is very hard to know when your help is a good thing or not. Despite knowing better and being older (well 44) I have gotten involved in a few "White Knight" situations - and while thankfully all have worked well - I do try to slow my Cavalier side down




*Burning with a cigarette - Okie John, if near eyes etc, it can meet general requirements for deadly force (loss of eyesight, limb, etc)

[Peally]

If there's anything I've learned about domestics, it's that it takes two to tango. What's needed to be said has been said, but 9 times out of 10 the "victim" is just as braindead as the manchild attacker.

Short of a murder or similar major felony I'm calling 911 and booking ass at the earliest convenience. People in domestics are nuts

[will_1400]

Call 911 and be a good witness. Unless I'm wearing a badge and am charged with enforcing the law, I'm not sticking my neck out and risking my freedom or family over a domestic that's got nothing to do with us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's the route I default to and actually took when a domestic argument outside my apartment culminated in the gf getting punched in the face before taking a heavy roundhouse kick (from my angle looked a lot like a muay thai low kick) square to the head which made her drop and not move for a long while. Other bystanders looked after her health until the police and paramedics arrived upon which I gave my statement to the sergeant who responded. No further involvement needed on my end and last I heard, the abusive boyfriend was pretty much toast as far as fighting the charges went.

[Notorious E.O.C.]

Scenarios like this are why I'm glad I carry a second phone now. Call 911 with the personal one, roll video with the work one. If the cops want the phone to maintain chain of custody on the video, it's city property anyway - I'm not out any hardware.

[Coyotesfan97]

Be a good witness, call 911, and stay out of it unless it escalates to lethal force.