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Thread: When to get involved.

  1. #1
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    When to get involved.

    Hypothetical scenario. You're at the gas station filling your car. A woman pulls her car to a nearby pump and starts to fill her car. A man driving a van pulls into the parking lot, stops next to the woman's vehicle, exits, and the man and woman start arguing. It appears that the man and woman know each other. The argument escalates to a shoving match and the man grabs the woman and throws her on the ground. She stands up and the man and woman start arguing again.

    What do you do? Why and how are you going to do it?



    I'm playing with a new drawing program so here's a picture. This played out several years ago at a gas station. There's an old man at the X marked 1, putting gas in his car. A woman pulls up to the pump at the bottom right and the van pulls in a minute later. The man and woman start arguing at the X marked 2. The argument turns into a shoving and slapping match and the man throws the woman on the ground. She gets up and they start arguing again. The old man walks over and physically places himself between the man and woman, with his back to the woman. About where the X marked 2 is at. The man and woman reengage in the shoving and slapping, with the old man in the middle. After about 15 seconds, the woman jumps on the old man's back and bear hugs his head. The man pulls a folding box cutter from one of his pocket and starts slashing and stabbing the old man and the woman's arms. The old man manages to escape from the fight and runs, at old man speed, to the X marked 3 where he falls or collapses. The man and woman both get in the van (the man's driving), and run over the old man's legs as they flee the parking lot. The real damage was from the legs being run over. The old man was on cumadin or warfarin (or some other high strength blood thinner) and over the next few days the doctors could not stop the bleeding in his legs and ended up amputating his legs just below the hip. The man and woman were quickly ID's and arrested at a hospital in Oklahoma a few hours later, when she showed up to get her arms stitched up. They were a common law couple and frequent flyers, officers were at their house at least once a week for a domestic violence call. The woman was given the opportunity to be a witness and not face any charges, if she agreed testify against the man. She refused because she would not testify against "the man I love" and ended up taking a 25 year sentence. The man ended having a heart attack and dying in jail while awaiting sentencing.

    I know this is one of the more extreme cases of when things go wrong. Getting involved in a domestic is a risky proposition. Despite being well intentioned, it's easy to have both parties turn on you. I'm not saying that if you see a woman getting the poopy stomped out of her to call 911 and be a good witness, but if it's not to the point that someone's life is real danger, it may be time to just be a good witness.

  2. #2
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    I'm highly unlikely to get involved in anything that resembles a domestic issue.

  3. #3
    We are diminished
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    Answer: You get involved when you feel like the good you're going to do will outweigh the potential costs to you & your family if something doesn't turn out the way you hope it does.

    Having said that, be aware -- as I believe many of our LE members will attest -- that "victims" in domestic violence situations are more likely to come to their abuser's aid than their own. IOW, taking any action against the abuser (from yelling to hitting to drawing a gun) is likely to end the domestic confrontation and instead put you in the middle of a 2-against-1 confrontation, with you being the 1. That will extend not just through the immediate incident but on through when police reports are filed, witnesses are sworn in at court, etc.

    I used to run a pretty straightforward FOF scenario in which the student was standing around minding his own business when a couple walked around the corner. First the guy started calling his gf/wife/whatever a whore and yelling at her about the way she dressed, wore too much make up, etc. Then he'd grab her by the shoulders and shake her a bit and yell more loudly. If the student still did nothing, he'd hit her and knock her to the ground.

    At any point, if the student intervened the guy would draw a gun. When the student drew his own, the GF would then draw her pistol from a position off to the side of the student and burn him down. Then the police arrived on scene and both the abuser and GF said the student tried to mug them. The number of students who couldn't wrap their heads around that (very realistic) turn of events was close to 100%.

    I'm not saying ignoring them is the right thing to do. But any action beyond that opens you up to a lot of potential hurt during and after the action is over.
    Last edited by ToddG; 02-01-2015 at 07:49 PM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    I'd be watching carefully at the argument stage, when it got physical I'd call 911, and announce that loud enough for the guy to hear. It's possible that if the guy knows cops are coming he will either cease or leave. At position #1 there is still distance and cover if he wants to come after me instead. I would not insert myself between them because I wouldn't trust her not to stab me in the back.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

    Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...

  5. #5
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    unless it directly impacts me or mine, it's 911 and I stay the hell away. I don't have legal protection to defend people.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
    TDA: Learn it. Live it. Love it.... Read these: People Management Triggers 1, 2, 3
    If anyone sees a broken image of mine, please PM me.

  6. #6
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    It gets tiring to see a woman, a child, or even a man with bruises and broken bones come into an ER and insist that they ran into a door and got a black eye, a cracked rib, and bruises on the arms. Believe me.

    That said, if you see abuse happening, and you cap the abuser, the victim will likely testify against you at the murder trial. If you are to act, you should accept this and consider accordingly. I'll never get involved in an abusive situation. Like Todd said, you may need to end up shooting more than one person, and it kind of defeats the purpose of defending the victim if they suddenly try to kill you after you double tapped the "love of their life". Suddenly, you've turned a violent narcissist into a martyr, you turn an abusive scumbag into a misunderstood saint who was taken from their loved ones too soon.

    Unfortunately, a victim of abuse must come to terms with the fact that they are a victim of abuse before they can see their abuser for what they really are.


    A parting question: If you saw the same situation, but instead it was the woman abusing the man, would you do anything differently?

  7. #7
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Call 911 and be a good witness. Unless I'm wearing a badge and am charged with enforcing the law, I'm not sticking my neck out and risking my freedom or family over a domestic that's got nothing to do with us.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    unless it directly impacts me or mine, it's 911 and I stay the hell away. I don't have legal protection to defend people.
    Everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing (unsurprisingly). I'm just picking this quote out of the many offered above because it's closest to what I'd write. So: this^^^

    Unless it turns into a life or death stabbing, or some such. In which case the last sentence quoted above changes somewhat (and the physical evidence emerges to shield men legally if the SHTF). I won't let someone get murdered on my watch if I can help it, otherwise forget it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    Everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing (unsurprisingly). I'm just picking this quote out of the many offered above because it's closest to what I'd write. So: this^^^

    Unless it turns into a life or death stabbing, or some such. In which case the last sentence quoted above changes somewhat (and the physical evidence emerges to shield men legally if the SHTF). I won't let someone get murdered on my watch if I can help it, otherwise forget it.
    Even then, i'd phone 911 and stay the heck out of the mix.

    I offer this as a word to those thankfully unaware of how abusive relationships work.

    Having been on the ground floor of one as a kid,ill just say this-when you see a brusied woman being called names by some kittenhead, remember that she considers that treatment normal!

    Its an incomprehensible state of mind-I have trouble reconciling it myself and I was there for the ugly bits growing up-but as far as the woman's concerned, the asshole who regularly assaults her is the Good Guy, and its the world and its standards who are the Bad Guys. How dare the outsiders dictate how he treats her!,he'll say behind closed doors. Note-the kind of kittenhead who beats his spouse also turns into the most lavish gentleman maybe 40% of the time, typically when he senses he's gone too far with the verbal and physical abuse. Then he'll become a gentleman-taking her out, treating her nice, etc.

    She starts thinking "maybe this guy isnt an asshole.Maybe he really is just misunderstood, and totally loves me for who I am.If he didn't, he wouldnt be buying me flowers and apologizing right now.He's just a misunderstood soul who needs my love to get on the right track."

    We all know what happens next.You might even see it at a gas station while youre pumping fuel.
    When it does, she wont think of anyone stopping the guy as a rescuer.Far from it-they'll be the enemies, police WORST of all, because now "society" is interjecting itself into her "fairytale" relationship and assaulting the poor, misunderstood Man of Her Dreams who occasionally has flaws.God help anyone who justifiably injures the SOB -and yes, if he's injured she will have no issues defending the scumbag with her life if that's what it takes.Pressing charges ? He's not a criminal , her brain declares.

    The victim's worldview is totally warped-and not very many people have the mental stamina to escape. It took detectives hauling away my mom's abuser on unrelated fraud charges to break the cycle. Forced to start over by circumstances,she re-connected with my family and we slowly emerged from the blackness back into the world.

    Ive no doubt had he been arrested in front of her, she would have turned on the police before letting him get hauled off. As a citizen with a CCW permit, I wont dare intervene in a DV situation. Its jacked up, but the best thing to do is call 911-and attach a prayer to the poor souls responding to the call, because they're going to need it.Id go even far enough to say if an abused woman is with her abuser, she's the bigger threat then he is in a confrontation.Youre not just dealing with a man beating up a woman-youre dealing with a psychological drama even trained experts have trouble unraveling. Dont step on that land mine if it can be avoided at any reasonable cost.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  10. #10
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    Call 911, be a witness. Zimmerman can tell a story...
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

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