How does one draw from AIWB?

[Mr_White]

I was wondering mainly about any variations in how members here draw from AIWB and what specific technique they use? I am particularly curious how folks here first acquire a fighting grip on the gun. I've seen different people appear to use different methods and have experimented with various methods myself. I have seen people thumbcap the back of the slide and then put their thumb behind the slide as soon as they begin to clear leather/kydex and also seen people who put their thumb behind the slide and seem to get the web of their hand deep in the tang before they begin drawing. After much trial and error, I like thumbcapping the back of the slide at first a little more but find it doesn't seem to jive so well for me when drawing something like a 1911 with a beavertail grip as opposed to a striker fired gun such as a Glock. Thanks everyone.

I bring my strong hand onto the grip with my thumb flagged high. Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip. As soon as I start lifting the gun upward, space is created on the left side of the gun and my thumb starts sliding over there as I lift the gun. Before the muzzle clears the holster, that thumb has slid completely over to the left side of the gun and the slide is no longer blocked.

[ToddG]

Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip.

That seems internally inconsistent to me. If your grip isn't where you finally want it to be (in this case, a fairly signifiant difference in SH thumb position), how is it your master grip? To me, what you described has a lot of "snatch draw" to it.

[JHC]

I bring my strong hand onto the grip with my thumb flagged high. Maybe a third of my thumb is blocking the back of the slide when I first get master grip. As soon as I start lifting the gun upward, space is created on the left side of the gun and my thumb starts sliding over there as I lift the gun. Before the muzzle clears the holster, that thumb has slid completely over to the left side of the gun and the slide is no longer blocked.

Me too. That's why low carrying highly concealable holders suit me. On the Soutnarc dvd I was struck by how he taught the thumb in a flagged position and keeping it there to shoot from retention and prevent fouling the slides function. Interesting contrasting points of view.

[Mr_White]

If your grip isn't where you finally want it to be (in this case, a fairly signifiant difference in SH thumb position), how is it your master grip?

I think it's a small difference in strong hand thumb position myself. The way I think of it is that I just don't go the route of shoving my thumb between the holster and my body upon going for the master grip.

I think the thumb sliding over to the left side of the gun during the time the gun is rising and before it has cleared the holster is not consequential. Even if I did shove my thumb down between my body and holster before even beginning to lift the gun, it still wouldn't truly be my master grip in what I think is your line of thought. Part of my freestyle grip is to press my strong hand thumb down onto the back of my support hand thumb, an adjustment you and I made in AFHF after you so keenly recognized I was varying strong hand thumb position and pressure - thanks! That pressing down can't happen until both hands are on the gun or the strong hand thumb will at least sometimes block my support hand palm/thumb base from getting where it needs to go on the left grip panel. So for me, I think there is going to be a small bit of adjustment after the gun is unseated in the holster no matter what I do.

I went the way I did with this back when I built my AIWB draw in the first place because it felt most efficient with the strong hand path to the gun (not so much up then diving down, but more out then in, even though there is still a slight downward element to it), secure, and I also probably went that way because shoving the thumb down when I stood there and drew nine million times would have jabbed the hell out of my abdomen and I had already decided against an undershirt.

To me, what you described has a lot of "snatch draw" to it.

I don't think of it that way, though it is possible I am thinking of the snatch draw differently than you are, or differently than you and everyone. I don't think I do a snatch draw because the gun is fully seated in my fingers and palm before the gun starts coming up, and the direction of travel of my hand changes at the point I get on the grip. The only adjustments made are for the strong hand thumb to slide to the left side, which feels like it occurs by itself as soon as the gun starts getting lifted and left side space is available, then once the support hand is in place, my strong hand thumb presses down on the back of my support hand thumb. My strong hand also changes direction - it goes out semi-laterally, reverses direction and comes in to the grip, then starts lifting up.

The snatch draw as I understand it, and I could be wrong here, is that the strong hand starts below the gun, comes up toward where it's going to join with the support hand, and while the strong hand is raised, the fingers get underneath the grip and the hand continues on its original path and without stopping or slowing and lifts the gun as it does so. I've tried doing this a little - very little - in dry fire when I was first building my AIWB draw, felt it was far less secure and immediately dismissed it.

I haven't changed my master grip acquisition since AFHF and I bet if you felt I was snatch drawing you would have told me then. Also, I know Ben Stoeger is against the snatch draw and he didn't say anything about my draw being a snatch draw either of the times I've trained with him. On the other hand, Craig Douglas did say something about this aspect of my grip at the beginning of the live fire portion of ECQC, and expressed concern about whether it was a secure enough master grip. I explained basically what I wrote in this post, and he wanted us to just pay attention to whether it became an issue in the course of ECQC. It did not, at all. It was admittedly a training environment, but a tough one as far as they go, and we did plenty of drills where if it were going to be an issue I think it would have manifested then.

[Talionis]

My AIWB draw is very similar to yours, Gabe. The mechanics are very different indeed from what I call a scoop draw and what I think everyone else here is calling a snatch draw.

In a true scoop/snatch draw, the hand starts below the gun and the fingers scoop the gun up from the holster and only as the gun is being lifted does the heel/palm and then thumb begin to establish grip on the gun. This draw is obviously a bit less secure than any of the others mentioned in this thread. I have experimented with a scoop draw in the past, and while it was very fast (especially from an OWB competition rig), I dismissed it as unsuitable for either carry or competition. I believe that the combination finger and heel/palm contact keep very good control of the gun while I'm in the process of withdrawing the gun from the holster while the meat of my thumb comes into solid contact with the gun as soon as a gap begins to form between gun and body.

[ToddG]

So for me, I think there is going to be a small bit of adjustment after the gun is unseated in the holster no matter what I do.

I get that. My approach is to get what is essentially my SHO grip on the gun before it moves. That gives me the most secure grip I can accomplish one handed and helps me avoid what SLG pointed out: the number of times we've seen people drop guns on the draw. I think it helps keep my grip & draw more consistent which in turn means fewer fumbled draws. I've also seen enough people grab their shirt as the grip finishes later in the draw that it's a significant worry for me.

... and I had already decided against an undershirt.

Which is a mutation I simply cannot fathom to begin with.

I don't think I do a snatch draw because the gun is fully seated in my fingers and palm before the gun starts coming up, and the direction of travel of my hand changes at the point I get on the grip.

That makes sense and perhaps my idea of a snatch draw is just tautological: if you're drawing the gun before your grip is finalized, it's a snatch. But I agree that if you're not lifting the gun into your grip then it's not really snatching the gun. I'll go back and look at some of your posted videos because I know that something recently made me think you were snatching the gun up into your palm.

[Mr_White]

I get that. My approach is to get what is essentially my SHO grip on the gun before it moves. That gives me the most secure grip I can accomplish one handed and helps me avoid what SLG pointed out: the number of times we've seen people drop guns on the draw. I think it helps keep my grip & draw more consistent which in turn means fewer fumbled draws. I've also seen enough people grab their shirt as the grip finishes later in the draw that it's a significant worry for me.

When I did mess around with (but never implemented) the snatch/scoop draw, I definitely felt like it was a tossed gun waiting to happen. I seem to remember it being good for .1 or .2 time savings on the draw, but in no way did I think it was worthwhile.

Which is a mutation I simply cannot fathom to begin with.

Explained below.

You have no dignity.

I'll go back and look at some of your posted videos because I know that something recently made me think you were snatching the gun up into your palm.

I think sometimes it can look like that when I hit the grip super clean and spend minimal time riding the gun in the holster before I lift it. I started poking around at a few videos to clip screen shots, but the quality wasn't great and it was a little hard to see anything besides my lack of dignity. Hahahahahaa. I think you can see the thumb position a bit if you pause at the right moment.

[ToddG]

When I did mess around with (but never implemented) the snatch/scoop draw, I definitely felt like it was a tossed gun waiting to happen. I seem to remember it being good for .1 or .2 time savings on the draw, but in no way did I think it was worthwhile.

Definitely the proper priority IMHO.

I think sometimes it can look like that when I hit the grip super clean and spend minimal time riding the gun in the holster before I lift it. I started poking around at a few videos to clip screen shots, but the quality wasn't great and it was a little hard to see anything besides my lack of dignity. Hahahahahaa. I think you can see the thumb position a bit if you pause at the right moment.

I've always thought it would be a good exercise to do some close-up video of certain folks during their drawstroke. Say some vids of the belt/holster area, some at the point where the hands meet up, some as it gets toward full extension, etc.

[YVK]

Not entirely relevant to a insightful discussion above, but when I started thumbcapping the P30 slide [largely influenced by Gabe's draw and Ernest' description of his P30 grip], my strong side thumb has stopped being a significant part of a grip. It is there and does provide some pressure, but not a whole lot. Time will prove if I am losing something in a security of my grip, but so far I haven't lost the gun and I am really enjoying the benefits of a super-high strong hand placement.

[GJM]

I've always thought it would be a good exercise to do some close-up video of certain folks during their drawstroke. Say some vids of the belt/holster area, some at the point where the hands meet up, some as it gets toward full extension, etc.

I think I have a link to Mr_White drawing in slo-mo, if that will help?