Airplanes

[JimCunn]

"I don’t think I’ve ever flown a J-3 with brakes good enough to get the tail up".

It's no trouble to get the brakes working well enough to put a J3 on it's nose. It's true that you will have to repeat the process fairly often 😀

"I’m also not sure that going off the edge at low speeds is necessarily going to work out like that".

Maybe. I don't see much difference from when I go off the top of a 25 foot high bluff on the Mississippi River at less than stall speed with the expectation of speeding up and leveling out before I settle into the water.

Worst case going off the platform is that you might be going slow enough for the bottom longerons to touch the edge of the platform before the tailwheel clears. That is unlikely to damage the longerons. The result just resembles coming down off the top of a hammerhead except that you don't have the rolling tendency. Worst case, it looks like the start of the descending leg of an L shaped loop except that you are right side up. None of these things are a big deal.

[GJM]

I don’t think I’ve ever flown a J-3 with brakes good enough to get the tail up.

I’m also not sure that going off the edge at low speeds is necessarily going to work out like that.

To me, it is the stakes not the odds.

Land short of the platform and you splat, certainly dying. Fall off the edge on the far end at walking speed, and you likely end up in a heap at the bottom of the hotel. Land short or long in the water, and you get wet. I may have mentioned it, but I have flown off a ridge, out caribou hunting, at flying speed less a smidge, and it was way exciting. Falling off at 30 mph less flying speed must be orders of magnitude worse. I have also done simulated engine failures in helicopters from a hover at 800 feet agl. Even with nothing to hit, and starting level, it is dramatic.

[JimCunn]

"Land short of the platform and you splat, certainly dying."

That's true. Don't land low. No different than a Carrier landing.

"Fall off the edge on the far end at walking speed, and you likely end up in a heap at the bottom of the hotel".

That's not. It's a tall hotel.

To do this you would want a day with a decent wind, properly aligned, and not too gusty.

[TC215]

"I don’t think I’ve ever flown a J-3 with brakes good enough to get the tail up".

It's no trouble to get the brakes working well enough to put a J3 on it's nose. It's true that you will have to repeat the process fairly often 😀

"I’m also not sure that going off the edge at low speeds is necessarily going to work out like that".

Maybe. I don't see much difference from when I go off the top of a 25 foot high bluff on the Mississippi River at less than stall speed with the expectation of speeding up and leveling out before I settle into the water.

Worst case going off the platform is that you might be going slow enough for the bottom longerons to touch the edge of the platform before the tailwheel clears. That is unlikely to damage the longerons. The result just resembles coming down off the top of a hammerhead except that you don't have the rolling tendency. Worst case, it looks like the start of the descending leg of an L shaped loop except that you are right side up. None of these things are a big deal.

Luckily in 5,000+ J-3 landings I’ve not put one on the nose yet, and I stand on the brakes as hard as I can doing short-field work. But we also keep them just strong enough to hold the plane still during run-up.

I believe hitting the longerons would be a real possibility. I think it’s hard to predict what would happen after that.

[JimCunn]

"but I have flown off a ridge, out caribou hunting, at flying speed less a smidge, and it was way exciting".

I've never caribou hunted, but have gone off the top of the Mississippi and White River levees at less than flying speed. Is it much different from a ridge?

I make no claims of being a good pilot but about 95% of my landings over the last 58 years have been in a J3 and due to using one for search and rescue back in the day, the majority of my landings and takeoffs have been off-field. I think the longeron whack is possible but unlikely because at roughly the midpoint of the platform you make a go/nogo decision and either stay on the brakes or cob the throttle and accelerate toward lift off. For this job, I'd want my 9.5 compression O-200 turning a Mac 7535 seaplane prop. Initial forward acceleration with it is on the order of a half g, so speed builds up pretty quickly.

As an unrelated aside, most I've ever turned in an O-200 J3 with that combination in a 55 mph climb was 119hp at 2850 rpm. Deck angle was considerable and I was a bit concerned about unporting the fuel tank. Turns out I didn't, but Jerry Burr's O-200 turning the same prop will. His O-200 is a bit peppier than mine.

BTW, I assume it was you that did the dead stick takeoff and landing video. I enjoyed that.

[GJM]

"but I have flown off a ridge, out caribou hunting, at flying speed less a smidge, and it was way exciting".

I've never caribou hunted, but have gone off the top of the Mississippi and White River levees at less than flying speed. Is it much different from a ridge?

I make no claims of being a good pilot but about 95% of my landings over the last 58 years have been in a J3 and due to using one for search and rescue back in the day, the majority of my landings and takeoffs have been off-field. I think the longeron whack is possible but unlikely because at roughly the midpoint of the platform you make a go/nogo decision and either stay on the brakes or cob the throttle and accelerate toward lift off. For this job, I'd want my 9.5 compression O-200 turning a Mac 7535 seaplane prop. Initial forward acceleration with it is on the order of a half g, so speed builds up pretty quickly.

As an unrelated aside, most I've ever turned in an O-200 J3 with that combination in a 55 mph climb was 119hp at 2850 rpm. Deck angle was considerable and I was a bit concerned about unporting the fuel tank. Turns out I didn't, but Jerry Burr's O-200 turning the same prop will. His O-200 is a bit peppier than mine.

BTW, I assume it was you that did the dead stick takeoff and landing video. I enjoyed that.

Nope, wasn't me in the dead stick takeoff video. I do my best to avoid drama when flying -- if the outcome is in doubt I consider it an error.

[JimCunn]

I have absolutely no idea how many J3 landings I have.

I've put a J3 on it's nose twice (decades ago).
First time, I had a helper.
He was in the plane, holding the brakes with the stick back and throttle closed.
I propped from the rear.
Contrary to my instruction, he immediately firewalled the throttle and applied full down elevator while keeping the brakes locked.
I grabbed for the throttle from outside the plane, but couldn't overpower him in time.
You know the result...
Fortunately, the field was very dry and about 6" deep in dust.
Prop still tracked and wasn't bent, but we could have planted a garden inside the dusty cabin.
Flew it out.

Second time, I was landing in a plowed field at a jobsite. Came in slow over a cotton patch with considerable throttle and chopped it when I cleared the cotton with the intent of plopping in and a short rollout.
Unbeknownst to me, there was a set of deep tractor tire ruts immediately adjacent to the cotton, and I sat both mains down in the rut. I got the mags off before the prop hit, but when I got stopped the only thing touching the ground was the prop and the left wingtip. I reached out to make sure the mags were off, and the plane fell back onto the mains and prop. Whacked the prop, cowl, airbox, and about 3 feet of the left leading edge at the tip. Borrowed a prop and flew that one out too (I wouldn't do that today - much older and hopefully considerably wiser).

[JimCunn]

Another fun landing, but with no damage ---
I was passenger and my brother was pilot
We were working a rescue, using the gravel top of the White River levee as a refueling point.
Either the Sheriff or the State Police (I forget which) were bringing us fuel in 5 gallon cans.
Then someone parked on the levee where we had been touching down, so we had to offset our approach and slip in on the far side of him. All went well till someone else parked a bit further along. That required locking up the brakes after touchdown and a sliding stop on the gravel levee top. So far, so good - but the right hand elbow at the brake blew out while we were still doing about 10 mph, and we did an immediate left hand turn straight down the side of the levee. I was in the front seat, and I still remember how big those trees at the bottom of the levee looked. We were running a C85 with a McCauley 7438 prop, and I think that saved us. My brother firewalled it going straight down the levee, applied down elevator to blow the tailwheel off the ground, and full right rudder to swing us 180° so that we were pointed uphill, going backwards down the levee. Full throttle stopped us quickly and we then taxied back up the side of the levee at about 3/4 throttle and turned left onto the top before stopping. Biggest excitement was chopping the throttle soon enough that we didn't pop over the top and down the other side. I was glad he was piloting, and I wasn't. We got the Cops to move their cars before continuing 😀

Edit for those not familiar with J3s - pilot usually sits in back seat with passenger in front.
I didn't see any drama in the dead stick takeoff video, but it sure did look like fun.

[GJM]

We had done severe weather come through a few nights ago, and there was even a tornado warning which is unusual for AZ. The high wind contributed to a train derailment just north of here. Initially, we heard there were hazardous chemicals, but fortunately it turned out to be corn syrup.

We were flying in the helicopter this morning and saw the repair and recovery underway.

[DC_P]

Nope, wasn't me in the dead stick takeoff video. I do my best to avoid drama when flying -- if the outcome is in doubt I consider it an error.

I'm with you. Routine is good. Exciting means a bad day with questions to answer and reports to file.