Airplanes

[Suvorov]

So, a drone with an onboard pilot?

That’s really a good point. As events on both sides of the unpleasantness in Ukraine have shown, drones are increasingly capable, cheap, and have served to once again deny mobility to the battlefield once more the way the machine gun did 100 years ago.

[Trigger]

The other competitors in the competition were:

UA-28A Draco (modified light utility plane)
AT-6E Wolverine (modified trainer plane)
MC-145B Wily Coyote (modified light cargo plane)
and, at one time, the A-29 Super Tucano (modified trainer)

so it looks like they looked around some.

As to how much ground fire the air tractor can absorb, they're basing the SOCOM one on the air tractor already modified with a armor "bathtub" used to spray drug crops.

Super Tucano was my preference for a USAF Light Attack aircraft. Training other nations as part of foreign internal defense (FID) might cause a different plane to be a better choice. Light Attack had a few weaknesses. They worked well for insurgencies/COIN, but not for much else. Small payload, slow speed, limited maneuverability, limited self-protection suite. They are relatively cheap, and easy to train to fly.

That said, CAS is not an easy skill to learn. So no matter how easily you can teach a new pilot to fly it, it takes a bunch of skill and experience to learn how to drop ordnance on the enemy, and not hit the friendlies. When your teammates on the ground are dying, and screaming on the radio for help, you need the skill to do it right and do it quickly. I’ve been told by a ground commander (directly) that he would rather have his troops die by enemy fire than by friendly bombs dropped in error.

The problem with UAVs is it is difficult to see and understand the battlefield from a control station on the ground vice in the air overhead looking out the window. A difficult task (CAS) from the cockpit becomes even tougher with a UAV.

[M2CattleCo]

With respect of M2’s comments, which I opine are the most pertinent to this discussion, I can’t help but wonder if there are not better aircraft for this application. While I don’t have any time in an air tractor I have trained dozens of pilots from zero time to fly airplanes and the inherent stability of an airplane is one thing that makes the job relatively easier than say rotor aircraft. Take away that stability, add a low time developing nation pilot, unforgiving airplane, and the need to divide attention between flying and combat duties and even I can do the math.

The USAF used Cessnas in Vietnam as observation aircraft and I really wonder how much ground fire an air tractor can absorb than a turbine 206 could?

A friend of mine went to Jordan and trained some middle eastern pilots to be instructors in 802s about 15 years ago.

They started them out in Citabrias and the few who made it out of the Citabrias got into the 802. Once the program was handed over to the organization or military they were training they immediately tore up all the aircraft with a near 100% fatality rate.

[GJM]

A friend of mine went to Jordan and trained some middle eastern pilots to be instructors in 802s about 15 years ago.

They started them out in Citabrias and the few who made it out of the Citabrias got into the 802. Once the program was handed over to the organization or military they were training they immediately tore up all the aircraft with a near 100% fatality rate.

I regularly fly single engine piston and turboprops, multi engine jets, float planes, turbine helicopters and tail draggers. In years past, I also flew a turbine Beaver on wheels. While I am respectful of all aircraft types, I am more cautious in taildraggers than anything else I fly. Way more cautious!

[M2CattleCo]

I regularly fly single engine piston and turboprops, multi engine jets, float planes, turbine helicopters and tail draggers. In years past, I also flew a turbine Beaver on wheels. While I am respectful of all aircraft types, I am more cautious in taildraggers than anything else I fly. Way more cautious!

They’re not engineered well.

[TC215]

A friend of mine went to Jordan and trained some middle eastern pilots to be instructors in 802s about 15 years ago.

They started them out in Citabrias and the few who made it out of the Citabrias got into the 802. Once the program was handed over to the organization or military they were training they immediately tore up all the aircraft with a near 100% fatality rate.

I regularly fly single engine piston and turboprops, multi engine jets, float planes, turbine helicopters and tail draggers. In years past, I also flew a turbine Beaver on wheels. While I am respectful of all aircraft types, I am more cautious in taildraggers than anything else I fly. Way more cautious!

The Citabria barely qualifies as a taildragger. I’ve taught several people in them, and I don’t think they’re demanding enough to prepare new taildragger pilots for other airplanes.

[M2CattleCo]

Yeah Citabrias are pretty docile on the ground.

My first solo was in a Citabria.

[Caballoflaco]

That’s really a good point. As events on both sides of the unpleasantness in Ukraine have shown, drones are increasingly capable, cheap, and have served to once again deny mobility to the battlefield once more the way the machine gun did 100 years ago.

Super Tucano was my preference for a USAF Light Attack aircraft. Training other nations as part of foreign internal defense (FID) might cause a different plane to be a better choice. Light Attack had a few weaknesses. They worked well for insurgencies/COIN, but not for much else. Small payload, slow speed, limited maneuverability, limited self-protection suite. They are relatively cheap, and easy to train to fly.

That said, CAS is not an easy skill to learn. So no matter how easily you can teach a new pilot to fly it, it takes a bunch of skill and experience to learn how to drop ordnance on the enemy, and not hit the friendlies. When your teammates on the ground are dying, and screaming on the radio for help, you need the skill to do it right and do it quickly. I’ve been told by a ground commander (directly) that he would rather have his troops die by enemy fire than by friendly bombs dropped in error.

The problem with UAVs is it is difficult to see and understand the battlefield from a control station on the ground vice in the air overhead looking out the window. A difficult task (CAS) from the cockpit becomes even tougher with a UAV.

R/E difficulty of CAS: I heard an Apache Pilot on a podcast within the last year talking about his class losing a helicopter and crew in training when they got target fixation on an attack run and flew straight into the ground. As a non pilot I guess it wasn’t that surprising to hear, but it was a pertinent reminder of the task load folks doing that job face and how it can become overwhelming very quickly.

A couple of thoughts on the future use of drones and CAS. I know that Ukrainians and possibly the Russians have their drone operators very integrated with their combat units and fairly close to the fighting a lot of times. I don’t know if American Combat air controllers are using their own drones right now, but it seems like that would be an extremely useful tool in the toolbox, especially in contested airspace where global hawks and what not couldn’t operate.

Also, in addition to a bunch of smaller systems that are in development, the Marines are getting ground launched Tomahawks that have significant loitering and ISR capabilities. It’s basically going to be a really big, really long range switchblade. (Semantic question: when does a cruise missile become drone?)

[Dog Guy]

Regarding drones, CAS, AI etc: Ward Carroll had this interview recently. He does a good job with is guests, and Benitez always has good stuff to tell. I generally prefer reading to watching videos, but Carroll's are usually solid. And good as a background for intervals on the indoor bike.

[GJM]

Alaska Airlines:

https://onemileatatime.com/news/alas...rough-landing/