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Thread: Airplanes

  1. #491
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Thanks. I was reading a bunch of comments locally basically saying the Baron's tail was designed too small for these upgraded engines making the window of recovery irresponsibly small, especially in hot/thin 115° air.

    But this video says the controls as seen on the ground are in a position to aggravate a spin, though the presenter can't be sure the impact didn't jar the control surfaces into those positions. Some are now speculating that the DPE waited too long to intervene and suggest that social dynamics of having a company employee as the examiner/instructor & a company executive for a student might explain a hesitation to take control.




    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    So what’s your point?

    Aviation is an inherently dangerous endeavor.

    You accept that when you get involved or participate.
    Regarding the Reno Air Races I expected there to be some danger (like with air shows), but to average more than 1 fatality every 2 years seems quite a bit more risky than any other extreme sporting event. Since a majority of those accidents occurred after planes broke apart during extreme mid-air maneuvers, I wonder if an even more thorough tech inspection could prevent some of the crashes. Or whether a higher altitude course might give a g-loc'd pilot time to recover. Or whether some autopilot safety system might detect a lack of pilot inputs and take control.
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-20-2022 at 02:59 PM.

  2. #492
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    The aviation community is filled with more blowhards and aviation Fudds than the gun community ever dreamed of.

    (Dunning-Kruger)^10

    Something to think about when wading into the internet aviation discussions.

  3. #493
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    The aviation community is filled with more blowhards and aviation Fudds than the gun community ever dreamed of.

    (Dunning-Kruger)^10

    Something to think about when wading into the internet aviation discussions.
    Hey!! Watch it pal!....lol

    😁
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  4. #494
    My wife and I just finished a 5.2 hour flight, where the auto pilot did most of the flying, and we had plenty of time to discuss a wide range of topics.

    On this accident at Reno. I don't know the pilot and feel terrible for that family's loss. In terms of risks factors -- flying an experimental jet 400 knots just a few hundred feet off the ground around pylons is a dangerous proposition. Adding in a race format and a crowd makes it worse. Considering the pilot was 61 and had 2,300 hours of flight time, lots of things were working against him.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #495
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Any loss is sad. More often than not, like you mentioned, there are circumstances involved. Every takeoff and landing i do is preceded by a TEM briefing. (Threat Error Management). Every flight ends with an analysis between the two pilots on what went good, and what could be improved upon. It’s the nature of an unforgiving business.
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  6. #496
    We are slowly introducing TEM on the military side of the house (and the contractors are behind) . Last month our senior safety guy flew out to brief us and I asked him when we would transition from CRM to TEM. He said, what's TEM?

    Anywho, gonna share a quick story: In 1999 we did a Baron spin program. My only part, I held the camera in the chase Bonanza, on my knees in the aft facing seats. It was insane, I filmed as long as I could, but as the g's built, I was basically pointing the camera down inside the plane. We spiraled down while the Baron spun its face off. Both directions.

    I don't recall if we had a spin chute on the Baron but the pilot for sure wore a chute.. And I didn't even have a seat belt on!

    I would love to see that video today. First test point my dumbass didn't get the camera recording... So a quick knock it off, recover, and try again. If I recall, we were looking at the wing tip fuel tanks but I don't remember the details if we added baffles or this was a normal Baron to get baseline data.

    This was back when Raytheon owned Beech. We called ourselves Raytheon Aircraft Test S.. (don't recall what the S stood for) RATS. I have the patch at work.

    The more crazy thing is now this group and Cessna are owned by the same parent company. They are sharing all their secrets from years past. Imagine Chevy and Ford merging!

  7. #497
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Hey!! Watch it pal!....lol

    😁
    You know that you were who I had in mind when I posted this! LOL

    Not at all, but you do know what it is that I speak of.

    PPRuNe is the template for message boards in hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post

    Regarding the Reno Air Races I expected there to be some danger (like with air shows), but to average more than 1 fatality every 2 years seems quite a bit more risky than any other extreme sporting event. Since a majority of those accidents occurred after planes broke apart during extreme mid-air maneuvers, I wonder if an even more thorough tech inspection could prevent some of the crashes. Or whether a higher altitude course might give a g-loc'd pilot time to recover. Or whether some autopilot safety system might detect a lack of pilot inputs and take control.
    The accident in Reno is sad, a son and a father lost his life tragically and my heart goes out to those who suffer his loss. That said, as others have said, what he was doing was some DANGEROUS SHIT! I had a chance way back when to fly a ME-109 in the airshow circuit some years ago, after a lot of thought I decided against it as I was just settling down to start a family. Flying a 80+ year old warbird as a side job did not seem like the safest course of action for where I was in my life. While it probably would have been fine, would have certainly been cool, and is nothing on the level that is racing jets at Reno, in the end the rewards were not worth the perceived risks. And I guess that's my point, this man made the choice to race jets and I'm sure he made that choice after weighing all the risks. I'm not saying he got what he deserved. I respect him for following his passion and doing what he did. His loss is tragic, but not unexpected i t's just what happens when you do the things that he did. If you really want to be amazed and appalled, look up the number of race car drivers who would die every year back in the "golden age" of auto racing in the 1950s-1960s. Truly astounding!

    As for safety systems like you describe, others here will chime in @GyroF-16 and @Trigger, but some modern fighters do have systems that will detect g-loc and take over, but those systems are "cutting edge", and cost lots of money. I just don't see the airshow and racing circuit adopting the technology due to the weight and cost alone. I'm not even sure that the L-29s ever had an autopilot but if they did, I'm 100% certain all that stuff gets stripped before they hit the racing circuit.
    Last edited by Suvorov; 09-20-2022 at 10:37 PM.

  8. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by rayrevolver View Post
    We are slowly introducing TEM on the military side of the house (and the contractors are behind) . Last month our senior safety guy flew out to brief us and I asked him when we would transition from CRM to TEM. He said, what's TEM?

    Anywho, gonna share a quick story: In 1999 we did a Baron spin program. My only part, I held the camera in the chase Bonanza, on my knees in the aft facing seats. It was insane, I filmed as long as I could, but as the g's built, I was basically pointing the camera down inside the plane. We spiraled down while the Baron spun its face off. Both directions.

    I don't recall if we had a spin chute on the Baron but the pilot for sure wore a chute.. And I didn't even have a seat belt on!

    I would love to see that video today. First test point my dumbass didn't get the camera recording... So a quick knock it off, recover, and try again. If I recall, we were looking at the wing tip fuel tanks but I don't remember the details if we added baffles or this was a normal Baron to get baseline data.

    This was back when Raytheon owned Beech. We called ourselves Raytheon Aircraft Test S.. (don't recall what the S stood for) RATS. I have the patch at work.

    The more crazy thing is now this group and Cessna are owned by the same parent company. They are sharing all their secrets from years past. Imagine Chevy and Ford merging!
    I was around Beech quite a bit those years, so our paths may have crossed! The spin program on the Caravan was pretty wild -- it came later when they went to TKS.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #499
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    It never amazes me how small a world aviation is.

    I bet some would find it hard to believe that many of us posting here are a friend or two away from knowing one another.
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  10. #500
    I was watching the jet race in Reno last weekend when Aaron Hogue’s L29 went in. An absolute tragedy. There was no pre crash impact with another plane. The L29 just drifted slowly toward the ground, with no apparent corrective input from the pilot. My first instinct was a medical issue. Here’s a well explained and diagramed video from an experienced pilot suggesting all the ingredients were present for a 9g g lock induced blackout…..

    https://youtu.be/FKYa41V5xwQ

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