Airplanes

[Stephanie B]

To expand on what he wrote, it's not a new concept/requirement. Within the context of GWOT, COIN aircraft goes back to the late 2000s.

The Air Tractor is just one of a few different submissions that were developed in the last decade; this is actually a re-hash of an Air Tractor developed for a couple prior procurements, not something new. There is a whole class of light attack props that have existed for most of GWOT, and the Air Tractor is just one contestant among many for a few tenders. The Embraer Super Tucano has been the reigning champion of this class....it has been type designated by the US since the late 2000s for cool-guy operations, and is also what we temporarily outfitted a USAF squadron with in the mid-teens and also trained and equipped the Afghan Air Force with. I'm unsure what changed and why they went with the Air Tractors this time.

An American-made airplane instead of a Brazilian-made one? But I suspect that's not the main reason (but it still is one). Fixed conventional gear vs. retractable tricycle gear may be a factor, as there likely will be a lot fewer maintenance issues in a remote airstrip.

The only thing new about this is it finally going "mainstream" with a large purchase relative to earlier procurement. They'll be an incredibly awesome asset to have in supporting our COIN efforts across Africa. I'm unsure why it took this long to finally accomplish; I'm sure those details lie buried in the memories of various SOCOM guys and are only shared over beers, but if I had to guess....I'd put a dollar it has something to do with the Air Force stone-walling anything to do with aircraft/missions that they don't want others to have, but also don't want to assume themselves.

I am deeply skeptical of the Air Froce getting behind a fixed-gear prop-driven air strike aircraft. That need has been around since the Spad was retired and there have been proposals for such aircraft dating back to when the Spads were still flying. So now, something like over fifty years since the guys on the ground have been asking for such an airplane, the Zoomies are going to buy one?

They've been in love with swept-wing jets for a very long time, witness the multi-decade effort to bury the A-10. I submit that the only reason that the Air Force is supporting this project is because the alternative is using armed drones. If there's anything they hate more than straight-wing airplanes, let alone props, is drones.

(For good reason, I might add. Nobody goes through military pilot training to wind up flying a glorified flight-simulator.)

[TGS]

I am deeply skeptical of the Air Froce getting behind a fixed-gear prop-driven air strike aircraft. That need has been around since the Spad was retired and there have been proposals for such aircraft dating back to when the Spads were still flying. So now, something like over fifty years since the guys on the ground have been asking for such an airplane, the Zoomies are going to buy one?

Like you noted with the A-10, doubly so with COIN jets. Look at how fast the USAF dumped the A-37 Super Tweets after Vietnam, and on top of that it's almost like a concerted effort was made by the USAF to hide their history......as if it was somehow shameful, like how a family back in the day would lock up their physically handicapped kid.

[DMF13]

To be fair the A/OA-37 were in service until the early 90s, and were used in Operation Just Cause, in 1990.

Also, the USAF had the OV-10 until the early 90s, which was arguably a better COIN/FAC platform.

The USAF did not completely abandon the FAC mission, but and went to the OA-10, for that role.

I have much love for the A-10, and see the value in COIN/FAC/CAS aircraft, but the A-10 is in sore need of replacement. I disagree with the majority of the senior AF leaders attitude toward the COIN/FAC/CAS mission, both currently, and over the entire history of the USAF, and I disagree with some of the tactics the leadership has used to end the A-10s use, but the truth is it does need to be replaced.

[TC215]

[entropy]

Interesting few days in the air. Mother Nature provided some spectacular views, and something else provided nearly an hour of head scratching discussion over the North Pacific.

Never a dull moment at times.

[HeavyDuty]

Interesting few days in the air. Mother Nature provided some spectacular views, and something else provided nearly an hour of head scratching discussion over the North Pacific.

Never a dull moment at times.

You flight deck guys get the best views.

[Oldherkpilot]

To expand on what he wrote, it's not a new concept/requirement. Within the context of GWOT, COIN aircraft goes back to the late 2000s.

The Air Tractor is just one of a few different submissions that were developed in the last decade; this is actually a re-hash of an Air Tractor developed for a couple prior procurements, not something new. There is a whole class of light attack props that have existed for most of GWOT, and the Air Tractor is just one contestant among many for a few tenders. The Embraer Super Tucano has been the reigning champion of this class....it has been type designated by the US since the late 2000s for cool-guy operations, and is also what we temporarily outfitted a USAF squadron with in the mid-teens and also trained and equipped the Afghan Air Force with. I'm unsure what changed and why they went with the Air Tractors this time.

The only thing new about this is it finally going "mainstream" with a large purchase relative to earlier procurement. They'll be an incredibly awesome asset to have in supporting our COIN efforts across Africa. I'm unsure why it took this long to finally accomplish; I'm sure those details lie buried in the memories of various SOCOM guys and are only shared over beers, but if I had to guess....I'd put a dollar it has something to do with the Air Force stone-walling anything to do with aircraft/missions that they don't want others to have, but also don't want to assume themselves.

Not associated with the GWOT, but slow COIN\CAS has been toyed with for a long time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe...stang fighter.

[Chuck Whitlock]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022...fb_defensenews

Between missions they can win hearts and minds by cropdusting.

(Seriously, Air Tractors have always fascinated me.)

This; all of this. The simplest option is often the lightest option. Allowing for the highest payload, fuel capacity; armor, speed, whatever you want to trade weight for. The Airtractor is configured as such for utility and reliability as a “working” aircraft. I’ve said it before; nothing does CAS better than helicopters. But this is about as close to a helo as a plane can get. And muuuuccch cheaper to build and operate than any helicopter. We always opined the ’Tractor would be amazing in this role; it’s hilarious someone’s actually building and fielding it. I was at an FBO last year and pissed some AF dudes off when I told them I’d rather fly the crop dust Tractor sitting beside their T-28s than the jets; would be more fun!

Back in the 90's, I was working in a 2-man avionics shop that was installing radio packages in the Air Tractors of a couple of local crop dusting businesses, and more than once thought to myself that they'd be great for carrying a shit-ton of ordinance.

[Trigger]

One thing that gets forgotten in the CAS discussion is the time it takes for the CAS fighter to get from their station (on ground alert, or airborne on-call) to the target area. Works well on preplanned offensive ops, and we can put CAS fighters over the target area before the OP kicks off. Does not work as well when the enemy kicks off an OP on their own time schedule. Saw this in Iraq and Afg where A-10s would take twice as long to respond as Vipers or MudHens, this was significant when the target was 200 miles away. For Super Tucanos, double the A-10 time. For the Air Tractor, double it again. Hell, just use a sundial.

[TOTS]

One thing that gets forgotten in the CAS discussion is the time it takes for the CAS fighter to get from their station (on ground alert, or airborne on-call) to the target area. Works well on preplanned offensive ops, and we can put CAS fighters over the target area before the OP kicks off. Does not work as well when the enemy kicks off an OP on their own time schedule. Saw this in Iraq and Afg where A-10s would take twice as long to respond as Vipers or MudHens, this was significant when the target was 200 miles away. For Super Tucanos, double the A-10 time. For the Air Tractor, double it again. Hell, just use a sundial.

On the other hand, especially for the tractors, the ability to launch/ recover from (almost) FOB sized bases (I’m thinking places like Bastion like our helos operated from or even smaller) may actually reduce the time to respond to a TIC, depending on how they operate their stand-by or alert levels. You could have these aircraft much closer to the front. Waaaayyyy better than from Kandahar, Al-Asad, or having to come through Karachi Center like purple air. You would be amazed at how little footprint it takes to operate a crop-dusting business.

Now that I think about it, they have to integrate with rotors pretty well for escort missions, etc.