The speed of lethal force

[BJJ]

The first major red flag to me is a lone officer going to investigate a domestic disturbance. The second major red flag is when the killer agrees to come outside and then is allowed to retreat to his bedroom. Under no circumstances will I allow someone who is detained or under arrest to do that. If you're being detained pursuant to an investigation or I've told you you're under arrest for a warrant and you need to grab your shoes, grab your smokes, get a number out of your phone, call your mama, etc. that is fine that you need those things but you're going in cuffs first and then we will work all of that out. I put people's shoes on their feet if I have to after they're in cuffs. I have adopted that policy based on a personal experience from when I was new where I delayed handcuffing someone who managed to get away and also the experience of another officer who used to work at my department. The other officer's experience was that he went to arrest someone on a relatively minor warrant. The guy didn't have a shirt on and said he needed to go in his bedroom to put on a shirt. He came back out wearing a shirt but also had retrieved a gun. The officer was able to react quickly enough to shoot and kill the suspect. I would prefer to not have to go through all that. The other red flags from the video are trying to search from the side instead of behind and once the search started the guy was reacting in a way consistent with people who have something on them.

I am very very sorry that the officer was killed. When I think back to the way I handled some calls when I had only been on the job as long as him, I get chills thinking about how easily I could have been had.

[Paul]

Back-up is the responsibility of the investigating officer, other shift members, and the chain of command. Everyone should realize that there is no shame in asking for additional units. Shift members (and officers from other units) need to make it clear that backing each other up is everyone's responsibility. Supervisors and the chain of command need to enforce this. If someone states "I'll advise for back-up" when the call indicates back-up is needed, someone with stripes or bars needs to be getting on the air to ensure that back-up is dispatched.

In this day and age of computerized dispatch, very few command staffs are willing to put the safety of their troops above response times. I always try to explain to guys that you get paid by the hour not by the call, either it's BS and it doesn't matter if it simmers a little longer while you wait for cover, or it's going to be mess and you really need your cover their with you.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/22313-po...-jacob-stewart

What's really disgust me looking at the ODMP page is that this kid had one year of service and is exhibiting laziness that I'd expect out a 10+ year officer. He's fresh out of training. Whoever FTO'd this kid should be ashamed of themselves. How many blind eyes were turned to let someone that fucked up on the streets.

[fixer]

Man...that was almost like...an ambush. Tough to watch.

I grew up in this area of AZ and I can tell you folks are really eager to delude themselves that the area is practically nirvana when it comes to any crime.

Edit: A question: I noticed this bad guy was at someone else's apt. Would it have made a material impact if say the officer requested the friend stand outside with them?

[KeeFus]

The first major red flag to me is a lone officer going to investigate a domestic disturbance.

Sadly, this happens more than we want to admit it. At my last agency, which covers one of the largest counties in the state, it was and still is common place to go on a domestic by yourself. One officer would easily cover 100 square miles by themselves so you can imagine how far off back-up was/is.

[41magfan]

I suspect most COPs in America working for an agency of less than a hundred sworn have/will work calls like that solo thousands of times in an average career; I know I certainly have. Most of the country isn't policed like you see on TV with multiple officers showing up for every minor CFS, and in my jurisdiction a situation like that (from what I could tell by the phone conversation) was a fairly benign call and wouldn't have garnered any particular threat warranting a multiple officer response.

[Mr_White]

The very common "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!!!!!" thing is an excuse for the bad guy to move, which puts the copper at an initiative deficit. I specifically taught guys to never do that.

Yep, definitely. Pretty hard to react very quickly and decisively if you have to differentiate between moving his hands because he is complying with the 'show me your hands' command you just gave, and moving his hands because he is bringing out a weapon.

[RoyGBiv]

In due time this will turn out to be one of the most valuable videos for officer safety we have, I have zero time to get into it now but I just want to drop a sentence related to this now, to the guys still answering the calls and working the streets, and ESPECIALLY the ones who have never been in a lethal encounter.
When your in the spot that rookie was in, and it's simply too late, and you have not tenths of seconds but hundredths of seconds to react, if you remember nothing else remember this; FIGHT THE GUN, NOT THE GUY.....
Most of us can see all the mistakes that led up to the point the pistol came out, I'll let others dissect that, but once the officer visually saw the pistol he had only one chance to stay alive, and that was to fight for control of that pistol, and he had hundredths of seconds to do it, instead, he put up his hand in a blocking type gesture, that's game over.

Be back for more on this later guys.

Thanks very much for the tactical mindset adjustment.

[Paul]

I suspect most COPs in America working for an agency of less than a hundred sworn have/will work calls like that solo thousands of times in an average career; I know I certainly have. Most of the country isn't policed like you see on TV with multiple officers showing up for every minor CFS, and in my jurisdiction a situation like that (from what I could tell by the phone conversation) was a fairly benign call and wouldn't have garnered any particular threat warranting a multiple officer response.

It happens at large agencies too. Very few officers get murdered in seemingly "dangerous" situations. No offense, but a the mindset of going to a "fairly benign" call is outright complacency. If it's "fairly benign" then it be still be "fairly benign" when sits a little longer and you wait for cover, and if it isn't benign then at least you'll have cover with you. It's not how many times we can get away with it that matters, it what happens that one time we get caught.

I don't want sound all high and mighty because for the first 8 years of my career I would have gone to that call by myself without a second thought. Answering 10-20 of those calls a week, it took 8 years before it bit me in the butt, and I was in a 4 on 1 fight for my life that resulted in a OIS. That was lesson learned in and of itself. To pile on to it, the guy I shot sued the city and department and part of the lawsuit was that I violated the department's call response policy. I had been cleared on the shooting by IA, there was a new internal investigation I was recommended for termination for violating the call response policy. Fortunately the city attorney at the time was pro-police and issued an opinion that accepted practices superseded policy and that it would be a wrongful termination. Instead I ended up with a demotion and suspension, and spending the next two years getting bounced between the property room, auto pound and dispatch. I never got a thank you for the years of hard work and keeping the stats favorable, at great risk to my own safety. When things when south there was no shortage of people waiting to throw me under the bus. It's not just officer safety it's also career safety.

[Chuck Haggard]

A domestic is NOT a "routine" call for service. Anyone that thinks so needs to get their head straight.


Yes, I totally get the issues with rural and small agency law enforcement.

[Wayne Dobbs]

A domestic is NOT a "routine" call for service. Anyone that thinks so needs to get their head straight.


Yes, I totally get the issues with rural and small agency law enforcement.

Like the other old guys around here, I saw things looking wrong when the guy left to get a jacket. And just like the murder of Trooper Coates, the lame ass pat down began on the side that was showing an empty hand! If you're going to do a search, do the job correctly and not half assed. Use some kind of ruse to get around on that pocketed hand, trap it and then announce the search. We have been getting killed by the same old losers, the same old ways, for many years. Can we believe that it can happen to us in our wonderful towns?

From another perspective, it shows those of us carrying concealed in pockets just how fast we can process a bad guy at close range if that need arises and we have a gun in hand.