Bill drill Comparison data

[GJM]

It would be interesting to see a larger sample size, especially composed of less practiced shooters. A good shooter will minimize the differences between equipment but the mediocre shooters will probably show you the relative advantages of the platforms.

A simple Bill drill is really a pretty crude test -- you draw and fire at a generous target. Accuracy, trigger quality, reliability and other important attributes don't much come into play.

I didn't set out to do a comprehensive test yesterday.There was a request in the VP9/320 thread for some benchmark data. The Bill was simple, and since I had access to various guns, I just grabbed guns that interested me. Other than the Glock, I haven't been shooting any of the others much lately. My refam between tests consisted of one dry fire draw and then I shot the Bill drills. Interestingly, the results more or less tracked my overall historical impressions from shooting most of these guns across a range of tests.

Hopefully others will shoot various platforms and post them to see whether the differences track my experience yesterday. Origami and I worked the 5x5 last fall and can probably post that up if desired.

[Bill Wilson]

I've been building a database of best times on the 5x5 drill, but in retrospect I should have called for 3 tries and record your 2 best runs. If done this way where basically every run has to count I normally shoot it between 18 and 19 seconds, well above my "best" run. Still it show's how good some of the top guys really are ...............

Shooter	Time	Gun
Bob Vogel	11.62	Glock 34	0 down
James Tarr	12.86	Glock 17
Rob Leatham	13.24	1911 .40
Frank Proctor	13.67	1911 9mm
George Mandes	13.84	Glock 17
Gabe White	14.38
B J Norris	14.48	Glock 17
Kyle Schmidt	14.8	1 1911 .40
Ernest Langdon	14.83	B92
Bill Wilson	15.97	B92	0 down
Jason Young	15.99	XD M
Glenn Shelby	16.88	1911 .45
Ken Hackathorn	17.36	1911 9mm
Jay Smith	17.75	1911 9mm
Cody Bachman	18.05	1911 9mm
Ryan Wilson	18.27	1911 9mm
Rob Haught	18.9	Glock 17
Ben Swallow	19.41	M&P 9mm
Charlie Mandes	19.57	Glock 34
Carroll Lawrence	19.8	1911 9mm
Austin Prolux	20.52	1911 .45
James Welch	22.12	1911 9mm
Terri Pressley	24.52	1911 9mm
Joyce Wilson	24.64	B92
Walt Prolux	24.82	1911 .45
Mike Pressley	26.66	1911 9mm
Greg Gammill	26.7	M&P 9mm
Mandy Bachman	27.27	M&P 9mm
Jeff Coursey	33.14	Glock 34

[SLG]

Bill,

I'd like to hear more about why you prefer the new drill to the original Bill Drill. You can always add more rds to a drill to make it "more comprehensive", if that's the goal. The original drill though, is still the best drill imo, to show recoil control, grip, sight tracking and stance, in the least number of rds. These things matter way more to me than the type of pistol.

I just stepped outside and shot the Bill Drill II, though I have not tried the 5X5 yet. II seems like it allows for some built in warming up to occur, compared to the original.

Anyway, as the original Bill Drill is a staple of mine, I'm really interested to hear more about II and the 5X5. Thanks very much.

[NETim]

I've been building a database of best times on the 5x5 drill, but in retrospect I should have called for 3 tries and record your 2 best runs. If done this way where basically every run has to count I normally shoot it between 18 and 19 seconds, well above my "best" run. Still it show's how good some of the top guys really are ...............

Shooter	Time	Gun
Bob Vogel	11.62	Glock 34	0 down
James Tarr	12.86	Glock 17
Rob Leatham	13.24	1911 .40
Frank Proctor	13.67	1911 9mm
George Mandes	13.84	Glock 17
Gabe White	14.38
B J Norris	14.48	Glock 17
Kyle Schmidt	14.8	1 1911 .40
Ernest Langdon	14.83	B92
Bill Wilson	15.97	B92	0 down
Jason Young	15.99	XD M
Glenn Shelby	16.88	1911 .45
Ken Hackathorn	17.36	1911 9mm
Jay Smith	17.75	1911 9mm
Cody Bachman	18.05	1911 9mm
Ryan Wilson	18.27	1911 9mm
Rob Haught	18.9	Glock 17
Ben Swallow	19.41	M&P 9mm
Charlie Mandes	19.57	Glock 34
Carroll Lawrence	19.8	1911 9mm
Austin Prolux	20.52	1911 .45
James Welch	22.12	1911 9mm
Terri Pressley	24.52	1911 9mm
Joyce Wilson	24.64	B92
Walt Prolux	24.82	1911 .45
Mike Pressley	26.66	1911 9mm
Greg Gammill	26.7	M&P 9mm
Mandy Bachman	27.27	M&P 9mm
Jeff Coursey	33.14	Glock 34

Vogel....

[Bill Wilson]

Bill,

I'd like to hear more about why you prefer the new drill to the original Bill Drill. You can always add more rds to a drill to make it "more comprehensive", if that's the goal. The original drill though, is still the best drill imo, to show recoil control, grip, sight tracking and stance, in the least number of rds. These things matter way more to me than the type of pistol.

I just stepped outside and shot the Bill Drill II, though I have not tried the 5X5 yet. II seems like it allows for some built in warming up to occur, compared to the original.

Anyway, as the original Bill Drill is a staple of mine, I'm really interested to hear more about II and the 5X5. Thanks very much.

The 5x5 drill is the best I've come up with to test for basic skill level with a minimal # of rounds and the ability to do it on one target. I think it tests:

Basic gun handling/manipulation skills (this is what I see most lacking when doing basic/intermediate training)
Practical accuracy
Strong hand shooting
Emergency reload
Transition from fast to a more controlled shot (string 4)

[ToddG]

The timer doesn't lie.

No, it doesn't. But it also only tells the part of the truth that it's designed for: how much time from beep to last shot.

Assuming arguendo that the shooter had the exact same amount of experience with each pistol & holster combination and that he was equally warmed up on all guns, that the ammo had been identical in every run, and that the hits had been identical in every run you'd still need to determine (a) how many runs for each is necessary to provide a statistically significant set and (b) what delta between means is meaningful.

Can you get real "normal performance" data out of three runs?

Is a difference of 0.05 seconds on a six-shot drill (meaning 0.01s per split) important? Even in competition?

Timers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story and they cannot synthesize the raw data for you.

5x5 Skill Test

Bill, mind if I add this to my website's Drills page?

[Bill Wilson]

No, it doesn't. But it also only tells the part of the truth that it's designed for: how much time from beep to last shot.

Assuming arguendo that the shooter had the exact same amount of experience with each pistol & holster combination and that he was equally warmed up on all guns, that the ammo had been identical in every run, and that the hits had been identical in every run you'd still need to determine (a) how many runs for each is necessary to provide a statistically significant set and (b) what delta between means is meaningful.

Can you get real "normal performance" data out of three runs?

Is a difference of 0.05 seconds on a six-shot drill (meaning 0.01s per split) important? Even in competition?

Timers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story and they cannot synthesize the raw data for you.



Bill, mind if I add this to my website's Drills page?

Yes add it

[ToddG]

Yes add it

Thanks. You're always so agreeable when I ask. Can I have a free Tactical Supergrade delivered next week?

[Bill Wilson]

This is one of my favorite drills to test basic skill

Basic Handgun Proficiency Drill 1

Start Position: Holstered in a true carry holster with hands naturally as sides

Targets Required: 2 IDPA spaced 10 foot apart edge to edge, T1 at 7yds and T2 at 10yds

Scoring: Limited Vickers Count (re-shoot any string with a gun malfunction)

Ammunition required: 34 rounds

String 1
Begin with 4 rounds only in pistol and facing 90 degrees right or left, hands at side and looking forward, turn and fire 2 shots per target, reload and 2 more shots per target for a total of 8 shots. T1 should be engaged first both times.

String 2
Facing targets with briefcase (can be virtually anything, we usually use an ammo can) in weak hand, 2 shots per target strong hand only, re-holster and repeat string once for a total of 8 shots

String 3
Facing targets, 3 shots on left target, move 4 foot minimum to your right and 3 shots on right target for a total of 6 shots

String 4
Facing targets, 3 shots on right target, move 4 foot minimum to your left and 3 shots on left target for a total of 6 shots

String 5
Facing targets, 2 shots to the body and 1 shot to the head on T1, re-holster and repeat on T2 for a total of 6 shots

Competent 58 seconds, Proficient 46 seconds, Expert 38 seconds, Master 32 seconds

[UNK]

I agree.

No, it doesn't. But it also only tells the part of the truth that it's designed for: how much time from beep to last shot.

Assuming arguendo that the shooter had the exact same amount of experience with each pistol & holster combination and that he was equally warmed up on all guns, that the ammo had been identical in every run, and that the hits had been identical in every run you'd still need to determine (a) how many runs for each is necessary to provide a statistically significant set and (b) what delta between means is meaningful.

Can you get real "normal performance" data out of three runs?

Is a difference of 0.05 seconds on a six-shot drill (meaning 0.01s per split) important? Even in competition?

Timers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story and they cannot synthesize the raw data for you.



Bill, mind if I add this to my website's Drills page?