This history predated that by quite a bit.Originally Posted by HCM
This history predated that by quite a bit.
#RESIST
Thanks SLG for posting this. I find it refreshing to re-think things from a different point of view, and you are really good at presenting your experiences.
I would love to hear Pats story.
Growing up, my friends dad carried an old style Colt detective special (no ejector shroud) and my old scoutmaster carried a Square butt J frame with a T grip both appendix carry with clip on holsters. I also recall several officers carrying primary and secondary revolvers with the back up carried appendix strong side behind the dump pouches / speed loader pouches.
IMO AIWB is safer than traditional carry because you can merely look down and see what is in your holster. Looking in your holster isn't as easy at three or four o'clock.
I've seen far too many people not even look jamming guns in their holsters carried strong side.
I think this is a definite factor, but that's merely an assumption on my part. We simply cannot know for sure whether the numbers would be substantially different with 6# or even 4# triggers. I assume they would be that isn't data.
SLG and I spoke on the phone about this yesterday and one point that came across I think it very much worth considering: in all the thousands of hours I've spent at public ranges with people who clearly don't take the Cardinal Rules seriously (or even know them), I've yet to see anyone get shot. Guns pointed in unsafe directions? All the time. Fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be? All the time. People shooting themselves or each other? Not in my experience. The NRA Range has been open to the public for about 20 years and has, to the best of knowledge, never had anyone struck by a bullet during open shooting or competitions.
Does any of this mean we should ignore the Cardinal Rules? Absolutely not. We follow them because we want to add redundant safety steps to reduce the odds of an accident. There's a difference between being lucky and being safe.
But most likely with revolvers that also had fairly heavy triggers compared to the typical commercial Glocks and M&Ps that so many people carry nowadays.
It would shock me if the NYPD ever issued a firearm with a trigger pull less than 10 lbs in their entire existence as an entity....
I've carried AIWB quite a bit, and have for many years, long before it was ever cool. Funny thing is when I started on the job and was carrying a snub off duty in that manner I caught a bunch of crap for it due to being seen as too old school and thus out of date. What comes around and all.
Anyway, the biggest issue I see with no holster carry isn't shooting yourself, and that is a worry, but in losing your gun in a fight or when you have to run.
I know of at least a dozens cases locally where an officer was in a struggle and his gun ended up either down his pants and he couldn't get to it, or on the deck and the fight changed from a simple physical altercation to a gun grapple on the ground. That's bad ju-ju right there.
Gunsite, the place where the four rules were canonized, has had enough self inflicted gun shot wounds, at last check they will not allow striker pistols in any IWB holster at their 250 level classes. A friend of mine was participating in the Gunsite alumni shoot (GAS) with his wife. By any measure, both were highly trained shooters. Both had taken many Gunsite classes and were regular GSSF competitors. When she re-holstered at the end of a stage in the GAS match, she managed to get a bit of her cover garment in the holster and as she seated her Glock in her IWB holster, it discharged, striking her upper leg. It was witnessed by multiple people, including the RO who was supervising the stage, and confirmed her finger was straight.
A man known to numerous friends was a highly skilled shooter. Graduate of Gunsite, TR, Morrigan Consulting, etc., described as very proficient, and tactically aware. He was using a shoulder holster with a Glock at a Texas indoor range. In the process, the pistol discharged, fatally killing him. My friends were incredulous, based on his skill and experience.
A long time shooting buddy, military veteran and USPSA M Limited shooter was shooting at an indoor range with another friend and USPSA shooter. My M class buddy managed to shoot my other friend in the foot with his 1911.
Apparently a recent participant in the Rogers Advanced/Intermediate class was shot in the leg, while doing a support hand only reload. Each person shooting is being supervised by a fellow classmate, and there are generally three or more instructors on the line watching like a hawk, especially on the one hand reload stages. I understand the shooter was rushing on the reload, and got on the trigger early, to the chagrin of those watching, who were unable to stop it.
These are just a few examples that quickly come to mind. M class USPSA shooter, two multiple Gunsite grads and a Rogers School participant -- by any measure highly trained and skilled shooters. Not sure what it means, except the law of large numbers applies to all hazardous activities, regardless of skill level, given a big enough sample.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
The juice is worth the squeeze for me, so I'll continue to carry & train from AIWB.
I don't think people are necessarily saying that its ok to shoot yourself in the hip, rather, its much much worse to shoot yourself in the crotch with femoral arteries and such being located there. As you say, any practice which prevents shooting yourself in the hip will also prevent you from shooting yourself in the crotch.
I totally agree with your point that someone who understands the potential for death involved with appendix carry will probably be safer than a hip carrier who does not really think about the danger. I liken it to the person who is gambling with their own money vs. the person who is just playing for fun with no money at stake. When the chips are your life, you tend to play more carefully.
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