Thoughts on shot placement and penetration

[DeltaKilo]

In my 150,000 rounds on trigger, either rifle or pistol, I tend to use a simple black sillhouette and have memorized as best I can where high COM is. When I am instructing classes here, I tend to teach students to aim high COM, and skip the headshot except for certain drills. Yes, this may be a fallacy, but I have yet to see any distinct proof that a headshot is likely to be hit under stress in a bad situation, compared to aiming for high center of mass and putting as many shots as possible on target. We do run drills to do two to the torso and one to the head, and I'll have them do slow aimed shots, but on moving targets or targets that turn to face and then turn away, I find that the majority of shooters, even good ones, have trouble making the head shot due to smaller area vs. rushed response.

In my experience, the times i have been in "that" situation, I had quite a bit going through my mind, the least of which was evaluating the target for opportunities to make perfect shots. I merely aimed by instinct and concentrated on not jerking the trigger, while trying to remember fundamentals of getting to cover/shooting from cover.

[ToddG]

Since this is still germane to shot placement, and with the caveat that I have never shot anyone:

I spent a good chunk of time last year talking to folks about head shots, including DocGKR and nyeti from M4C/LF. They were in agreement that just about any shot to the head with a police caliber handgun, regardless of whether it did significant damage or penetrated to the brain, had a very high likelihood (almost a certainty) of dropping the target to the ground for at least a short dazed period.

Furthermore, I find very few shooters (and fewer trainers) who put significant emphasis on hitting low probability targets at speed. From my own experience and that of students, I've seen a dramatic increase in confidence and probability when it comes to making those kinds of shots under stress when it becomes part of serious practice. I don't just mean doing some Mozambiques on the range, I mean drilling low-prob shots under time pressure again and again.

Having said all that, I'm in agreement that a bunch of fast hits high-COM beats the hell out of one perfect ocular shot if the ocular shot takes so long that it lets the other guy put a bunch of fast high-COM hits on you. In fact, I even do a demo in classes of that exact situation: how many hits can I get in an 8" circle in the same time it takes me to make one really good eyeball-zone hit?

[DeltaKilo]

Since this is still germane to shot placement, and with the caveat that I have never shot anyone:

I spent a good chunk of time last year talking to folks about head shots, including DocGKR and nyeti from M4C/LF. They were in agreement that just about any shot to the head with a police caliber handgun, regardless of whether it did significant damage or penetrated to the brain, had a very high likelihood (almost a certainty) of dropping the target to the ground for at least a short dazed period.

Furthermore, I find very few shooters (and fewer trainers) who put significant emphasis on hitting low probability targets at speed. From my own experience and that of students, I've seen a dramatic increase in confidence and probability when it comes to making those kinds of shots under stress when it becomes part of serious practice. I don't just mean doing some Mozambiques on the range, I mean drilling low-prob shots under time pressure again and again.

Having said all that, I'm in agreement that a bunch of fast hits high-COM beats the hell out of one perfect ocular shot if the ocular shot takes so long that it lets the other guy put a bunch of fast high-COM hits on you. In fact, I even do a demo in classes of that exact situation: how many hits can I get in an 8" circle in the same time it takes me to make one really good eyeball-zone hit?

I agree, practice increases confidence. My big thing is that, I'd rather have folks who don't have a lot of trigger time or experience with firearms not having to worry about it, and introduce it to more advanced students as a requirement in speed drills than to have granny and her little pearl-handled .357 try to make repeated headshots quickly. (yes, i had a blue-hair with a .357. Was a blast watching that little 90-pound old lady level off and fire that thing...)

That may be me and the types of students I get, but I find very few who can make it through a weekend of lots of shooting getting past making good solid hits in the HCOM in a quick fashion, much less make headshots in anything reasonable for self defense.

[dookie1481]

Is there a certain proportion of time/ammo you suggest working on head shots?

I read about that cop in Chicago who won something like 7 gunfights; he said that he spent a lot of time on the range working on head shots and he said that is likely the reason that he was so successful (I am paraphrasing someone else'e report of this, FWIW)

S/F

Jay

[DeltaKilo]

Is there a certain proportion of time/ammo you suggest working on head shots?

I read about that cop in Chicago who won something like 7 gunfights; he said that he spent a lot of time on the range working on head shots and he said that is likely the reason that he was so successful (I am paraphrasing someone else'e report of this, FWIW)

S/F

Jay

I would say that if you're working on it, practicing at least half your time at the range at making quick headshots and snap shots until you get fast, and work on it with various types of targets, target angles, and force yourself to move and introduce more stress into the routine. Like any workout, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.

I try to put about 100-200 rounds down range every time I go to the range, and i try to get to the range at least 3-4 times a week. I also try to use poppers and position targets at odd angles or set up IDPA-esque scenarios to shoot. I also try to shoot iDPA whenever I can.

Now that i'm back home on the farm, I'm working on getting a friend with a bulldozer to push up a nice berm at the back so I can do rifle and pistol without leaving the house, make it easier to practice without driving down to the range. Then I can leave the range for classes.

[ToddG]

That may be me and the types of students I get

You're focused on your audience, which is exactly the right thing to do. I don't get new shooters in class (at least, I'm not supposed to) so as a rule we're starting from a point where working on low-prob shots is more achievable.

Is there a certain proportion of time/ammo you suggest working on head shots?

There's no easy answer to that. As DK pointed out, depending on skill level, you may be far better off focusing the majority of your time on "easy" (high probability) shots.

I also wouldn't focus on head shots so much as I'd focus on the ability to hit low-probability targets at speed. That means small targets of various shapes, or obscured targets, or distant targets, or some combination of all the above. You want your capability to be "making tough shots when it counts," not just hitting one particular target at one particular distance under one particular circumstance.

[DeltaKilo]

You're focused on your audience, which is exactly the right thing to do. I don't get new shooters in class (at least, I'm not supposed to) so as a rule we're starting from a point where working on low-prob shots is more achievable.



There's no easy answer to that. As DK pointed out, depending on skill level, you may be far better off focusing the majority of your time on "easy" (high probability) shots.

I also wouldn't focus on head shots so much as I'd focus on the ability to hit low-probability targets at speed. That means small targets of various shapes, or obscured targets, or distant targets, or some combination of all the above. You want your capability to be "making tough shots when it counts," not just hitting one particular target at one particular distance under one particular circumstance.

Think I need to come and take your class and brush the rust off.

[dookie1481]

Makes sense, thanks guys.

[David Marlow]

Center mass placement is based on the military idea that any hit on an enemy is a good one, and center mass simply gives the highest probability of a hit of some sort.

I have read before that a good way to imagine the ideal engagement area is to think of an imaginary triangle with the base that goes from nipple to nipple and the top point ending just under the chin. Granted, this is assuming you have full frontal exposure. I would like to get some 3-D targets with heart, spine, and brain placements in about the right areas.

One target I have used, years ago in the infantry, was a 3-D foam target that basically had a large square punched completely through the chest, creating an open area. There was a small hole going from the top of this cavity up through the top of the head. The target was secured to a wood frame by tying a string to the frame above, running the string through the head, and tying the other end to a balloon in the chest cavity. When you hit the balloon, it popped and the dummy slid down the string, scoring a kill. Obviously, this was a single-use target before having to be reset, but was a lot more fun than simple pop-up ivans and worked great during enter/clear a trench live fires.

[DeltaKilo]

Center mass placement is based on the military idea that any hit on an enemy is a good one, and center mass simply gives the highest probability of a hit of some sort.

I have read before that a good way to imagine the ideal engagement area is to think of an imaginary triangle with the base that goes from nipple to nipple and the top point ending just under the chin. Granted, this is assuming you have full frontal exposure. I would like to get some 3-D targets with heart, spine, and brain placements in about the right areas.

One target I have used, years ago in the infantry, was a 3-D foam target that basically had a large square punched completely through the chest, creating an open area. There was a small hole going from the top of this cavity up through the top of the head. The target was secured to a wood frame by tying a string to the frame above, running the string through the head, and tying the other end to a balloon in the chest cavity. When you hit the balloon, it popped and the dummy slid down the string, scoring a kill. Obviously, this was a single-use target before having to be reset, but was a lot more fun than simple pop-up ivans and worked great during enter/clear a trench live fires.

I've been considering how to make good 3D targets for use with students. Figured some kind of moulded material like Paper Machet or plaster of paris would work.