Thoughts on shot placement and penetration

[David Marlow]

I thought about an easy version with boxes of different sizes hanging with the string and balloon, but that may be going a bit too far. I have also read about using different colored helium-filled balloons staked to the ground in a loose cluster with instructions to shoot certain colors without hitting any other colors. This is, from what I understand, useful for police marksmen in simultaing hostage situations because the wind keeps the balloons moving in random patterns.

Sorry, don't want to start a thread drift already. One of the things I love about this crowd, versus other forums I'm a member of, is most here seem to understand that we are trying to stop an assailant as quickly and effectively as possible and not necessarily kill, incapacitate, wound, or any other particular term. Obviously, the quickest way to stop an assailant is to completely incapacitate him or her with a bullet or fifty to the brain. This may or may not be possible depending on the situation.

Shooting high chest gives the best possible chance of striking heart, spine, lungs, and of course hitting the thicker part of the sternum. Hitting this part of the bone has a chance of creating multiple additional projectiles in the form on bone fragments. While not as quick as hitting the brain, the onset of hypovolemic shock will happen much faster in this artery-rich area than in the lower chest or upper abs.

I also think the idea of trying to take out the pelvis with a frontal shot as a failure to stop drill has pretty much been disregarded by most, hasn't it?

[DeltaKilo]

I thought about an easy version with boxes of different sizes hanging with the string and balloon, but that may be going a bit too far. I have also read about using different colored helium-filled balloons staked to the ground in a loose cluster with instructions to shoot certain colors without hitting any other colors. This is, from what I understand, useful for police marksmen in simultaing hostage situations because the wind keeps the balloons moving in random patterns.

Sorry, don't want to start a thread drift already. One of the things I love about this crowd, versus other forums I'm a member of, is most here seem to understand that we are trying to stop an assailant as quickly and effectively as possible and not necessarily kill, incapacitate, wound, or any other particular term. Obviously, the quickest way to stop an assailant is to completely incapacitate him or her with a bullet or fifty to the brain. This may or may not be possible depending on the situation.

Shooting high chest gives the best possible chance of striking heart, spine, lungs, and of course hitting the thicker part of the sternum. Hitting this part of the bone has a chance of creating multiple additional projectiles in the form on bone fragments. While not as quick as hitting the brain, the onset of hypovolemic shock will happen much faster in this artery-rich area than in the lower chest or upper abs.

I also think the idea of trying to take out the pelvis with a frontal shot as a failure to stop drill has pretty much been disregarded by most, hasn't it?

I'm reminded of an episode of southpark:

"Aw man, butters, you...you don't just shoot someone in the dick dude...not cool..."

[Chipster]

"I have read before that a good way to imagine the ideal engagement area is to think of an imaginary triangle with the base that goes from nipple to nipple and the top point ending just under the chin. Granted, this is assuming you have full frontal exposure."

I asked an emergency room physician (since then several others) once where I should shoot someone if I had a choice and the time to decide and ^^^^THAT^^^^ is what he said. He told me the psychological damage would probably outweigh the physical but in a few minutes it would matter nill anyways. His reasons were that the upper chest is going to have a high likely hood of hitting either the lung or heart and that the neck is mostly tendons and once one of those goes, so does alot of your coordination, Of course, he also told me that emergency personnel would have a hard time saving such individual thus lowering the expense to the taxpayers (with a wink of course). So, unless the course dictates to me, I always shoot nipple to nipple to throat, if presented to me (targets of course, I have never shot anybody)

[DeltaKilo]

"I have read before that a good way to imagine the ideal engagement area is to think of an imaginary triangle with the base that goes from nipple to nipple and the top point ending just under the chin. Granted, this is assuming you have full frontal exposure."

I asked an emergency room physician (since then several others) once where I should shoot someone if I had a choice and the time to decide and ^^^^THAT^^^^ is what he said. He told me the psychological damage would probably outweigh the physical but in a few minutes it would matter nill anyways. His reasons were that the upper chest is going to have a high likely hood of hitting either the lung or heart and that the neck is mostly tendons and once one of those goes, so does alot of your coordination, Of course, he also told me that emergency personnel would have a hard time saving such individual thus lowering the expense to the taxpayers (with a wink of course). So, unless the course dictates to me, I always shoot nipple to nipple to throat, if presented to me (targets of course, I have never shot anybody)

That's what I got from a doc that prompted my original post topic.

[BWT]

I think being able to hit small targets quickly should only lend itself to shooting bigger targets quicker.

Helps teach focus, proper technique, etc and is much less forgiving. It drives the shooter to be a better shooter if you think about it.

That being said I shot pistols this last week for the first time in over 2-3 months.

Go ahead, bask in the glow of being in my presence.

I usually put the target out to about 12-15 yards, maybe 20.

I figure same principle applies, if you can't control it at close range, you'll only degrade the further you get out, and vice versa, if you can control it at long range, you'll dominate short range.

Is there something wrong with my logic, as a side note?

I don't want to train to be a target pistol shooter, but I also don't want to blast away at ranges where I'm catching the target on fire.

If I could do three things, it'd be switch to a different carry gun, get a PACT Timer, and start going to the gun range to practice at least once a month. Can't do that currently.

[David]

I'm probably wrong but the true test will be remembering all of these things when you're being shot at and possible even hit. The only shot that counts is the one which stops him and if that shot ends up being in is in his knee, weenie, teet, thigh or his chest who cares as long as it stops him. Landing any shots at a moving, shooting target who is trying just as hard to kill you is going to be challenging enough.

[David Armstrong]

First, on the 3D targets, Action Target makes a 3D target with cavities that you put balloons into that is pretty good. You can even vary the size of the balloons from big to small, set it so only a head shot will work, or only a pelvis hit, and so on.

As for shot placement, I'm more into the "shoot what is available as long as it is available" camp. Getting hits on target is hard enough for most folks, so find the big part and shoot the center is the standard default for me. For those that have the luxury of being able to figure out specific aiming points based on anatomy you have my blessings and respect, I've never been able to do it under stress of time.

[SteveK]

As a rule, I like at least 80% of my practice to be moving and shooting. Remember, gunfights are seldom static events. Drills such as the box, compass and figure-8 drills are good for promoting good shooting skills. Running these drills headshot only can be humbling but can refine your skill set. Trigger control, sight alignment and wobble zone control become essential.

[MikeO]

Center mass placement is based on the military idea that any hit on an enemy is a good one, and center mass simply gives the highest probability of a hit of some sort.

Yep. Not the best place to hit, but the best place to aim to hit something...

FWIW for jello junkies, way back in 94 IIRC, the RCMP tested by shooting through pig ribs embedded 2 inches into bare gel blocks at 3 and 50 meters. Long story short, it did not make a significant difference in penetration/expansion/bullet path in their test. Through pig ribs inches pen/exp:

158/38 LHP 14.6/.61 (5 in bbl S&W)

4 in bbl S&W

115/9 ST 9.6/.55
147/9 HS 12.6/.58
147/9 Rem GS 15.5/.65

165/40 HS 13.3/.52
155/40 GD 12.8/.70
180/40 GD 13.5/.66