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Thread: The Humbler

  1. #11
    S.M.E. KevinB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?
    Part as I understand was mental -- giving folks lots of time can psych some out striving to make the perfect shot.

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  2. #12
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?
    It is, as said, basically a modified version of a standard NRA/PPC type shooting course. The ridiculously long times are necessary given the (original) precise target. It's pretty unrealistic but comes from a time (and place) that thought accuracy was everything and speed meant one shot every two seconds. Terrorist hostage takers apparently stand very, very still in gunfights.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    It is a Drill - not THE drill
    In fairness, there are more than a few folks who hold it out as the pinnacle of practical/defensive/combat pistol shooting.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    It is a Drill - not THE drill
    Based on what I've read, I see it more as a test of fundamentals than a drill.


    Okie John

  4. #14
    This dovetails with some thinking I have been doing about shooting groups over the last six or nine months, a discussion with Robbie Leatham, and something I heard about the AMU.

    1) I heard the AMU is disbanding their bullseye team. The given reason is the purpose of the AMU is to develop methods that are used by the overall Army, and bullseye is not perceived as being as relevant as other shooting skills.

    2) My belief that slow fire group shooting is not relevant to me in practical shooting competition, not useful to me in the hunting field, and not useful to me in defensive shooting.

    3) Robbie's belief that shooting at SLOW fire pace is actually counterproductive, because it can cause your brain to think you can only make a tough shot without meaningful time pressure.

    I get slow fire when you are first learning. I get bullseye as a pursuit in itself. What I don't get is 5 and 10 minute time limits for making shots that have a defensive purpose.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #15
    And, lest it be unclear, I am a major proponent of shooting groups, as should be obvious from all I have posted about shooting at 25-100 yards. I just think you should pull the trigger at a pace that is relevant to most of what we expect to do with a handgun.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #16
    We are diminished
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    I have absolutely no problem shooting slow groups and think it has a lot of benefits for anyone who hasn't perfected -- and I mean perfected -- sights and trigger. With all due respect to TGO, I don't know many people who are hindered by getting better at the sights & trigger fundamentals. Saying that going slow = bad habit is no different to my mind than all the people who claim practicing fast = bad habit. At the end of the day it comes down to understanding what you want out of each shot and utilizing the appropriate amount of trigger & sights to make that happen.

  7. #17
    I shoot the first three stages as my warm-up. While I am interested in my overall score, I am more interested in my consistency across each of the stages. The slow-fire establishes my "baseline" accuracy. I am much more interested in how much I deviate from my baseline as I increase my the speed at which I shoot.

    In other words, a total score of 270 resulting from 90 points on each stage is a lot better from my perspective than a 270 that results from a 100, a 90 and an 80. I used the same evaluative technique when I shot the 700-point aggregate with some regularity.

    While shooting a 700 on the 700-Point Aggregate is an admirable goal, I would be far more interested in being able to deliver a high degree on accuracy on the slow-fire stages and seeing only a slight loss in accuracy when shooting the timed and rapid fire stages.
    “Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”- Bruce Lee

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    This dovetails with some thinking I have been doing about shooting groups over the last six or nine months, a discussion with Robbie Leatham, and something I heard about the AMU.

    1) I heard the AMU is disbanding their bullseye team. The given reason is the purpose of the AMU is to develop methods that are used by the overall Army, and bullseye is not perceived as being as relevant as other shooting skills.

    2) My belief that slow fire group shooting is not relevant to me in practical shooting competition, not useful to me in the hunting field, and not useful to me in defensive shooting.

    3) Robbie's belief that shooting at SLOW fire pace is actually counterproductive, because it can cause your brain to think you can only make a tough shot without meaningful time pressure.

    I get slow fire when you are first learning. I get bullseye as a pursuit in itself. What I don't get is 5 and 10 minute time limits for making shots that have a defensive purpose.
    You’re right—bullseye shooting and gunfighting are pretty much chalk and cheese. Bullseye tests your ability to make small groups on targets that are basically circular rulers at unrealistic distances using outmoded technique. Rules, gear, targets, ammo, even range design are all meant to help you shoot smaller groups and get higher scores, and the game itself hasn't changed much since before the Great Depression.

    Slow fire (one shot per minute) lets you shoot/fiddle with gear at your leisure while still posing an administrative time limit. Timed fire (five shots in 20 seconds) is a lot like slow fire, but with slight time pressure. The 20-second limit is psychologically challenging at first, but you soon realize that it's plenty of time to fire five accurate shots, even one-handed. Rapid fire (5 shots in 10 seconds) is just enough faster than timed fire to change the game psychologically yet again.

    When I was doing it, I focused on Service Pistol, which meant shooting an accurized 1911 one-handed at 25 yards with GI ball ammo, trying to keep my shots in a 10 ring just over three inches wide. It had nothing to do with gunfighting and everything to do with nailing the fundamentals on every shot with one hand behind my back.

    With that focus on fundamentals in mind, consider where The Humbler came from. Most people from that unit will tell you that when it comes to shooting, there are no advanced techniques, only fundamentals executed under increasingly difficult conditions.

    As I understand it, The Humbler is a test of fundamentals. I'd guess that the folks who created it keep records of how well their people can shoot it, and that they're very interested in how that looks after a full night’s sleep and a good breakfast versus in pouring rain after making a high-altitude night parachute jump and moving for 40 or 50 hours across rough terrain with minimal sleep and chow. I'd also guess that anyone who shoots the Humbler well after being exhausted to the verge of hallucinating is probably a good person to have around in a fight, and that separating the wheat from the chaff might be the whole unstated point of it. Again, this is just my understanding of one possible use of The Humbler. I could be completely off base.

    I agree that The Humbler has limited utility for regular shooters like us. I see it as a well-documented way to measure our ability to execute the fundamentals, while the Hack standards and other tests address more fighting-related skills. It’s up to each of us to identify key variables that might affect how well we shoot The Humbler and incorporate them accordingly, if that makes sense.


    Okie John

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    You’re right—bullseye shooting and gunfighting are pretty much chalk and cheese. Bullseye tests your ability to make small groups on targets that are basically circular rulers at unrealistic distances using outmoded technique. Rules, gear, targets, ammo, even range design are all meant to help you shoot smaller groups and get higher scores, and the game itself hasn't changed much since before the Great Depression.
    I am not sure about that. I see a lot of the National Match CoF here:

    http://kxan.com/2014/12/01/chief-on-...-in-his-heart/
    “Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”- Bruce Lee

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Les Pepperoni's Avatar
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    I'm going to try this one sometime soon... Maybe I'll do the 500 Agg.

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