Beansbags from not dedicated shotguns

[Frank75]

Hi guys,
I am looking for your advice: we have to use beanbags from regular shotguns, which we use to shoot dogs ( or suspects if necessary ). The shotguns are personally issued. We can not use special shotguns for beanbags only!!! We had several situations, when a planned operation went down and the shotgunner had to switch from 00 buckshot to beanbags for several reasons. Do anybody have a special procedure for a situation like this? I am thinking about doing a cross check or similar, to make sure, that only beanbags are now in the gun.
Thank you,
Frank

[KevinB]

Don't do it.

IF your going to use a LL Shotty get a dedicated LL Shotty - or there will be a mix up.

[ST911]

Dedicated, highly visible, unmistakable, for 12ga LL use.

Transitional is asking for trouble, especially with your LCDs. If you insist, have a specified process for ammunition storage, spares carry, unloading, clearance, and loading procedure that uses at least the buddy system.

[jnc36rcpd]

We looked into impact munitions deployed from shotguns until a new retired major dumped the program. He was the same lieutenant (who retired as a captain) who ridiculed rifles, asking if we expected terrorists to come marching down the street and asked if we thought we could stand up to terrorists. No, sir, we expect to be slaughtered along with the citizens. Our plan involved calling for Delta Force, Seal Team, 6, and Guardians of the Galaxy. That rant over....

Both my counterpart on the allied county agency and I considered the idea of transitioning buckshot/slugs to impact rounds. Our thinking was that one officer would download the lethal round and load the beanbags under the supervision of the second. In retrospect, I think this would only work in daylight, on a square range, and under minimal stress. The problem is that one is only going to be transitioning rounds when something very exciting is happening nearby. Both the shotgun operator and the cover officer are likely to be distracted by the circumstances (which probably include the possibility of the threat breaking containment and assaulting them). The ammunition transition is likely to happen in low light. The risks of human error are high.

If you're going to try this, I would recommend that the ammunition be transitioned at the station and a less lethal shotgun be marked with tape. That said, I really don't think it is a good idea. While I understand that budgets are restricted, I'd recommend that less lethal munitions be fired from a 37/40mm launcher.

My buddy's agency eventually purchased Benelli shotguns for the better shots and transitioned their 870's to exclusive less lethal. That department adopted Tasers at the same time. I don't believe patrol ever launched a beanbag though I believe SWAT has done so.

[Dr. No]

Absolutely 100% not acceptable. Never EVER mix LL and lethal rounds. It is a recipe for disaster. There is not a single LL instructor in this country that will back you up in court if you have an accident. You will carry all the liability and you will not be shielded in court, personally or professionally.

Marking LL shotguns involves buying 5$ worth of blaze orange paint from Home Depot and masking tape.

If your LL guy needs a lethal option he should transition to pistol.

[Lon]

Absolutely 100% not acceptable. Never EVER mix LL and lethal rounds. It is a recipe for disaster. There is not a single LL instructor in this country that will back you up in court if you have an accident. You will carry all the liability and you will not be shielded in court, personally or professionally.

Marking LL shotguns involves buying 5$ worth of blaze orange paint from Home Depot and masking tape.

If your LL guy needs a lethal option he should transition to pistol.

What he said. Our patrol guys have zapped several people with bean bags from dedicated shotguns.

[SWAT Lt.]

I would be surprised to hear if anyone has a "procedure" for this as the practice is ill advised and should never be done. Agencies mandate specially designated shotguns for LL use ONLY and identify them as such for a reason.

[Frank75]

WOW, thank you for the input and sharing your expiriences. It seems, that we should avoid that situation and I will think about it.

[Dagga Boy]

This is a good situation where you can learn from US Law Enforcement (I don't know if everybody picked up that you are posting from Germany). We used to use lethal lethal munitions from regular shotguns on a regular basis here. Literally, I know of nobody who des that anymore because there were a lot of issues with getting ammunition mixed or miss identified. This is in the United States and at a time when US officers were very familiar with working with shotguns regularly. When I was in an exchange program with German police, their officers were always amazed at how much we shot in general, and how much we used shotguns.

Now, if absolutely forced to use a regular shotgun, here is what my SWAT guys did prior to the days of dedicated guns (this is why it is good to have old guys around). My two dedicated gas specialists (Grenadiers) were each issued a 12" barreled Remington 870 specially built by Robar. They also had shortened rear conventional stocks. They would work with each other to set the guns up for missions. They were specialists at using multiple types of munitions in 37mm, 40mm and 12ga. They would use these guns for all sorts of missions from gas deliver, riot munitions, direct fire less lethal, breaching and lethal. The key was working as a team with protocols to how they would load and to work as a back up and safety check for each other to ensure the right munitions were going into whatever they were using.
To this day some of this is still done, just not with the 12ga. They now use 40mm almost across the board for all of these missions, including direct fire less lethal........40mm bean bag works FAR better than the 12ga variant.
Again, if you can learn anything from US law enforcement who are well know worldwide for 12ga. use......dedicate specific guns for less lethal, and still have special checklists for them.

[David Armstrong]

Being a bit of a dinosaur from back in the day, we didn't have dedicated Less Lethal guns. Or procedure was was simple....if we were going to use a less lethal round all other rounds were first removed from the gun and only less lethal ammo was loaded. When done, all the less lethal was put away and the regular stuff was put back in. No mixing was allowed and whatever you were not using was not carried or available to you. For example, if moving to less lethal it was done at the vehicle, all the lethal rounds were put in the trunk and the trunk then closed. When done, all the less lethal was put back in the trunk and the regular rounds were put back into service. It worked, but I'll certainly agree that a dedicated gun is better.