Why do we encourage folks to live fire from appendix carry?

[SLG]

I wish I had something meaningful to contribute here but I really don't so I'll just ramble for a minute. Feel free to skip to the next post if that idea doesn't appeal to you.

I started carrying appendix part time in the late 90's with a G26 and then a G19. I didn't know anyone else who also carried aiwb back then so I never realized how dangerous it was. I'm amazed I didn't bleed out long ago. When I say I didn't know anyone else carrying aiwb, I mean competent folks who I associated with. Only about 20,000 NY cops were also carrying aiwb at the time, either off duty or on duty (as a backup weapon position, aiwb was pretty popular then in NY. No idea if it still is) Also, aiwb was probably the very first carry position when pistols were invented, so its not like its new or anything. None of us invented or popularized aiwb. I have mostly carried aiwb ever since, though I did take a break for a few years for reasons that may not be worth getting into now, but mostly involved not wanting to switch holster positions any more than I had to. On that note, I have seen plenty of people reach for guns that weren't where they thought they would be, both under timed stress and in FoF. As someone else already mentioned, you mostly see it with magazines, and I have seen everything from knives to batons to flashlights to cell phones get shoved into a pistol grip in the hopes that they would spit bullets. There are different reasons why that happens, and not all of them are relevant to this ramble but sometimes people do that when they expect a mag to be there and find something else instead. I'm reasonably certain that aspect also applies to other items besides mags.

On another note, all the references in the world to "top shooters" is really starting to wear me out. If "they" could be stereotyped, the most common thing would be that they all do different things for different reasons and you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from what they do. I've been guilty of it in the past as well. Having more than my share of actual top shooters as friends and training partners over the years, (not just guys who look good in practice, but guys who actually perform year after year.) have to say that many (most?) of them are not as safe as I strive to be, and all of them do things to improve what matters TO THEM. What matters to them rarely matters to me. Carrying a gun concealed 16-20 hours a day in case they feel the need to meet the grand jury is not high on their list and frankly, almost none of them understand it well at all.

As for safety issues while carrying and training aiwb - I don't believe that aiwb is any more likely to result in an ND than any other position, IF THE SHOOTER DOES WHAT HE CAN TO MINIMIZE ACCIDENTS! A good list of things to do has already been posted before and I'll not rehash it now. If the shooter does what he can, and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result. My gun very rarely points at me, and as long as I don't forget all of my 9,000 hours of training, I am pretty unlikely to shoot myself. What some competition shooter thinks about the issue is moot to me. I have a lot of real world draws from aiwb, and have a pretty good idea of how I will react under stress (if past performance is any indicator). Having said that, all of us are human and none of us are too high speed to fail. Which is why I have multiple redundant safety procedures built in to my gun handling. I know several top shooters who have not only had ND's, but also shot themselves. I'm trying very hard not to join them.

Along those lines, I usually assume that people on PF are serious, squared away shooters who know what they are doing and why. Unfortunately, this isn't always true. I have met many guys in my time on the range who talk a good game, and who can even produce good results some of the time. Unfortunately, lots of people still lack the fundamentals. Even among the guys who shoot a lot and like to train, practicing the basics is not that sexy so they don't do it, or they don't do it well enough and deep enough to get serious long term results. A good measure of how well someone understands and can execute the basics is what they can do cold. Warmed up really doesn't interest me at all. Even in big competitions, there is often so much time between stages that no one really gets to warm up effectively. That tends to sort the actual experts from the "training range" experts. Watching how people train will also clue you in to this stuff. There may be more than one way to skin the cat, but there sure are even more ways to fail.

Anyway, I'm sure I left some stuff out, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or single anyone out. If you think aiwb is too dangerous, don't use it. We're all adults, we all need to make our own decisions. Personally, I still rank driving as way more dangerous than aiwb.

[ToddG]

[Sean O]

SLG, excellent post. Awesome to see you posting again, thank you!

[GJM]

http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat...dentified.html

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...nt-5851471.php

[GJM]

Reference the kind of wounds stemming from self inflicted, accidental gunshot wounds, here is some interesting reading -- Front Sight's listing of "incident reports:"

https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyRep...howSingle&ID=5

20 self inflicted gunshot wounds by students during training. Of the 20, 12 were students drawing, 6 holstering and 2 dangling. Weapons involved:

Sig 3
Glock 5
1911 7
XD 4
M&P 1

All strong side holsters, and not a single fatality.

[SLG]

George,

I'm really at a loss to understand your point with those links. Other than the news article, do you know anything about that incident? Anything at all?

I'm reasonably certain that most of us already knew that a gunshot wound to the groin (where exactly was he shot again? And under what exact circumstance?) could be fatal.

Among people who carry OWB, I see a huge percentage of them point the gun at their sides, almost diagonally, from right love handle to left hip, every time they reholster. I'm sure it would suck to shoot yourself completely through your midsection as well. Does that mean that OWB is unsafe or that you have any similarity to the people who incorrectly holster their weapons?

Just saw your followup post. I posted my thoughts in order to post my thoughts. Not to get drawn into an argument about aiwb, which I will not do. Having said that, I don't find anything about Front Sight to be credible. The only thing that link proves is that FS does a worse job of training people than the NYPD does. 20 self inflicted gunshot wounds by students at class! Safest way to train is to not go to FS.

I've witnessed a very few ND's over the years. One was a guy who ND'd on the draw from an OWB holster. He created 4 holes in his pants leg and no holes in his leg. God works in mysterious ways.

Speaking of God, may he save me from myself. In the PO fatality, was he even carrying aiwb? Or did he simply point the gun at his "groin" while attempting to do something like clear it? I can show you plenty of wounds and deaths from incorrect clearing procedures. Maybe we should stop clearing our guns?

[GJM]

George,

I'm really at a loss to understand your point with those links. Other than the news article, do you know anything about that incident? Anything at all?

I'm reasonably certain that most of us already knew that a gunshot wound to the groin (where exactly was he shot again? And under what exact circumstance?) could be fatal.

Among people who carry OWB, I see a huge percentage of them point the gun at their sides, almost diagonally, from right love handle to left hip, every time they reholster. I'm sure it would suck to shoot yourself completely through your midsection as well. Does that mean that OWB is unsafe or that you have any similarity to the people who incorrectly holster their weapons?

SLG, I was told by area trainers there that the officer shot himself with a Glock 19 in an appendix holster. Frankly, I was astounded by your statement (referring to appendix carry):

and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result.

The tragic incident in TX should be at least considered in the context of evaluating your statement regarding the likely severity of a gunshot wound to the groin. Since he was obviously live firing from appendix, it goes directly to the subject of this thread.

To answer your second question, I think you can easily kill yourself drawing from an OWB holster. That said, I think you have to work a lot harder to kill yourself with an OWB holster than an appendix holster. While the plural of anecdote is not data, 20 shootings starts to approach data, and it is surely relevant that 20 people shot themselves with a strong side holster and none died. It is also relevant that despite the focus on re-holstering accidents appendix, 12 out of 20 shot themselves drawing, and half the incidents were with non-striker pistols (Sig and 1911 pistols).

[BJJ]

SLG,

I am grateful to see you posting here again.

[SeriousStudent]

SLG,

I am grateful to see you posting here again.

Indeed! My very best regards to your family. I really do enjoy your wife's book.

(My apologies for the thread detour).

[SLG]

I appreciate the warm welcome back guys!

GJM said,
"Frankly, I was astounded by your statement (referring to appendix carry):

and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result.

The tragic incident in TX should be at least considered in the context of evaluating your statement regarding the likely severity of a gunshot wound to the groin. Since he was obviously live firing from appendix, it goes directly to the subject of this thread.[/QUOTE]

I am now aware of one fatality from a self inflicted aiwb wound. I am unaware of any fatalities from OWB self inflicted wounds. I am also aware of one person who shot himself aiwb and is not dead. Mathamatically speaking (never a strong point for me) I don't think you can argue that a 50/50 chance of dying is "likely", anymore than you can argue that it is "unlikely."

In any event, my point was obviously not clear. For a properly trained aiwb shooter to DIE from an ND, seems very unlikely to me. My gun does not point at a part of me on the draw or when I reholster, that would likely result in my death if it were to go off. A number of things would all have to go wrong at the same time for me to receive more than a grazing wound if I had an ND. Given your body type and the way you train, that may not be true for YOU. It is true for me and my circle.

Though I pretty much think this extreme worry about aiwb is groundless, there is a real safety issue to carrying aiwb that no one has yet mentioned, and that is very hard to mitigate. It is the main reason why I try to convince people not to carry aiwb. I imagine Southnarc knows what I am talking about, hint hint. If you don't know what I mean, go do some force on force like ecqc, and see what can happen when someone doesn't understand creating space to draw a gun. This issue can also occur with OWB, but is much more likely with aiwb.