New c/c HK P30 or SS P229?

[ScotchMan]

Why, because the HK45 is closer to the original USP design than the 'P' Series; threrefore, it enjoys the same (better) trigger of the USP line.

Are you sure about that? My HK45 (and several I've handled), before and after going to the factory for the phantom reset issue, has an atrocious DA pull that is nothing like the USPs I've used. I agree that the SA pull and reset is better than the P series and similar to the USP.

I know triggers are subjective, but I have a hard time thinking anyone would find the HK45's DA pull to be as good as the USP's.

[psalms144.1]

First, some background on me so you know my perspective:

1. I'm a long time Sig shooter, had personally owned Sigs since I was old enough to own my own firearms (a P226 was the first pistol I bought), andhave been issued Sigs (M11, P229R DAK, P239) for 14 years now.
2. In 2012, completely fed up with a string of bad G19s, I switched to HK, carrying first a P30, then a P2000. Both were equipped with the "Todd Green" version of the LEM (light LEM with heavier trigger return spring). I shot these HKs - mostly the P2000, through several courses, and exclusively for the better part of two years (I did have an issued HK454CT for the first 8 months of 2012).

My thoughts:

1. I think the P228/M11 is one of the finest SHOOTING pistols ever created. Accurate, great triggers (both DA and SA), great ergonomics, simple manual of arms. To me, the P228 is the height of Sig's development in their "compact" line. The P229, on the other hand, does NOTHING for me. There's enough extra weight in the solid stainless slide that the balance of the pistol feels "dead" in my hand. My currently issued P229R DAK recoils as hard in .40 S&W as any other pistol I've fired in that chambering (except the G27), and Sigs don't offer the same size efficiency, when it comes to payload-to-size/weight ratio that other competitors do.

2. The P30 feels GREAT in my hand, and, in slow, deliberate fire, it's very accurate and soft shooting (especially in 9mm). However, the LEM reset is long, long to the point where, if I switch to the P30/P2000 after a dedicated run with my Glocks, I have a tendency to short-stroke the trigger until I'm back in the LEM "groove." The LEM feels like a very light, very smooth DAO trigger, that hits a definite "wall" at the end of the travel before the hammer falls. The P2000's trigger's "wall" is less pronounced that the P30's, but it's still there. The P30 suffers from the confusing trend to make pistols long in the grip and short in the slide - barrel is shorter than a G19, grip is longer than a G17. This makes for a pistol that's harder to conceal than the P229 by a stretch, based on the way I carry. The P30 is also capacity challenged - again, grip is longer than a G17/M&P, but only holds 15 rounds. The P2000's grip is G19 length, and again gives up two rounds of capacity. Also, as correctly noted elsewhere, the HK traditional DA/SA trigger varies from "suck" to "abusive" (the DA pull on my issued 45CT was WELL over 14#, and gritty as all get out...)

When I switched to HKs, the P30 quickly found its way into being a "safe queen" once I got my P2000. Only came out for semi-annual qualifications, so I could keep it on my authorized weapons list "just in case." The P2000 carried better for me, and shot just as well, even though it gave up two rounds to it's bigger sibling.

At the beginning of 2014, for a variety of reasons, I went back to carrying the gun I've been coming back to for years and years now - the G19. I find that for concealed carry, it simply offers "more" of everything except mechanical accuracy than anything else I've tried. BUT, if GLOCK disappeared tomorrow, and I had to pick between the two pistols you mentioned, I'd opt for the Sig if I wanted TDA, or the P2000 if I was willing to commit to mastering the LEM trigger.

Regards,

Kevin

[gtmtnbiker98]

Are you sure about that? My HK45 (and several I've handled), before and after going to the factory for the phantom reset issue, has an atrocious DA pull that is nothing like the USPs I've used. I agree that the SA pull and reset is better than the P series and similar to the USP.

I know triggers are subjective, but I have a hard time thinking anyone would find the HK45's DA pull to be as good as the USP's.

Talking about LEM and reset. The LEM trigger of the USP/HK45 is far better than the 'P' Series. HK's DA sucks regardless of lineage.

[B.K.]

The 2000SK was too sm. for my hands & my hands aren't that big, my pinkie finger rested on the mag awkwardly

Minor point but you'd probably like the P2000sk more if you had a magazine with a flat floor plate on it. Those stock ones with the funky extended lip on them tend to squeeze your pinky in a funny way. Most people I've seen quickly ditch those in favor of the flat floor plate option. The sk is also more easily concealed with the flat floor plate.

[Rich]

I've been using and working on Sigs since the mid 1990s. A lot of different year models, and round counts have been on the P229 .40s that have come across my work bench. I have also had the privilege of testing many other Sigs and calibers for duty/off-duty carry for years including timed, multi-threat and auto body testing. A couple of years ago, I had access to the P30 in 9mm and .40 for testing as well.

The Sig and the HK are different animals....apples and oranges. In 9mm, I prefer the P30. Other than the extended slide release lever(can be changed out with a P2000) which gets in the way of the thumbs forward grip, it is just a better designed pistol with superior attributes. The locking block and barrel are positioned slightly more to the rear, which shifts the balance point more reward compared to the Sig which I find lines up on target faster.....the downside being that for new shooters to the P30 it feels more snappy than the P228/P229 until they get used to the balance. The P30 polygonal rifling chronos out faster bullets, and in a Ransom rest, the P30 shows better accuracy. Magazines are more reliable too.

That being said, if I were to use .40, the P229 is pretty good in that role. Generally, the late 1990s P229 .40 is the best year of manufacture(AF-AI series) given the finish and materials. In the early 2000s Sig went to a Nitride finish that was very abrasive causing excessive and premature rail wear.(AL series) After 2005 Sig used a different frame alloy that was much less durable resulting in easy to strip grip screw threads and premature rail wear. Post 2012 P229s are a little better, but so far they do not beat the durability of the late 1990s guns.

My last point is the use of the .40 over the 9mm, which I find hard to recommend given my own experiences. In a timed course of fire with multi-threats, there is always a clear difference in accuracy and speed between the 9mm/.40 in apples-to-apples comparisons(P229s/P228s and P30s). The scoring isn't even close unless you slow down the course of fire and reduce the number of targets to let the .40 catch up. With newer ammo designs, it is also hard to find a difference in automobile testing whether shooting into or out of vehicles. Lastly, I can say from my experiences that when training with full power duty ammo, all .40 pistol models wear about 50% faster than 9mm models. Using a longer action for the .40 would have greatly improved the pistol's durability. Much as the longer action on the HK45 was ideal for the pistol's recoil levels. As the gun wears the tolerances open up, its groupings open up too and reliability gets worse. I have observed a lot of fliers with well worn P229 .40s out of a Ransom Rest. As for terminal effects, I'll leave that to Dr. Roberts and the FBI.

Its been over a year now since I bought my P30S 9mm and I still think the P30 is snappy with certain loads. The 124gr seem equal to the 180gr. and the 115gr have even less recoil than the 124gr.

But thats comparing 180gr 40S&W loads not my down loaded 135gr that spit out under 900fps. Come to think about it that has less velocity than CDuty 135gr 9mm load I tried out..


Still without a doubt Im faster out of IWB and on target with the P229. But Like I stated before could be the sights. I just hate the rear sight of P30S.

Thinking hard about a MK25 or maybe even going back to my roots and buying a 2.5 to 3inch 357magnum.



Can you show me were I can go to see the ransom testing of P30 9mm VS P229 40

And the testing that shows the P30 mags being more reliable than P229.

BTW my P229 German 12rd. & 12rd. Mec-Gar are highly reliable .

[Rich]

First, some background on me so you know my perspective:

1. I'm a long time Sig shooter, had personally owned Sigs since I was old enough to own my own firearms (a P226 was the first pistol I bought), andhave been issued Sigs (M11, P229R DAK, P239) for 14 years now.
2. In 2012, completely fed up with a string of bad G19s, I switched to HK, carrying first a P30, then a P2000. Both were equipped with the "Todd Green" version of the LEM (light LEM with heavier trigger return spring). I shot these HKs - mostly the P2000, through several courses, and exclusively for the better part of two years (I did have an issued HK454CT for the first 8 months of 2012).

My thoughts:

1. I think the P228/M11 is one of the finest SHOOTING pistols ever created. Accurate, great triggers (both DA and SA), great ergonomics, simple manual of arms. To me, the P228 is the height of Sig's development in their "compact" line. The P229, on the other hand, does NOTHING for me. There's enough extra weight in the solid stainless slide that the balance of the pistol feels "dead" in my hand. My currently issued P229R DAK recoils as hard in .40 S&W as any other pistol I've fired in that chambering (except the G27), and Sigs don't offer the same size efficiency, when it comes to payload-to-size/weight ratio that other competitors do.

2. The P30 feels GREAT in my hand, and, in slow, deliberate fire, it's very accurate and soft shooting (especially in 9mm). However, the LEM reset is long, long to the point where, if I switch to the P30/P2000 after a dedicated run with my Glocks, I have a tendency to short-stroke the trigger until I'm back in the LEM "groove." The LEM feels like a very light, very smooth DAO trigger, that hits a definite "wall" at the end of the travel before the hammer falls. The P2000's trigger's "wall" is less pronounced that the P30's, but it's still there. The P30 suffers from the confusing trend to make pistols long in the grip and short in the slide - barrel is shorter than a G19, grip is longer than a G17. This makes for a pistol that's harder to conceal than the P229 by a stretch, based on the way I carry. The P30 is also capacity challenged - again, grip is longer than a G17/M&P, but only holds 15 rounds. The P2000's grip is G19 length, and again gives up two rounds of capacity. Also, as correctly noted elsewhere, the HK traditional DA/SA trigger varies from "suck" to "abusive" (the DA pull on my issued 45CT was WELL over 14#, and gritty as all get out...)

When I switched to HKs, the P30 quickly found its way into being a "safe queen" once I got my P2000. Only came out for semi-annual qualifications, so I could keep it on my authorized weapons list "just in case." The P2000 carried better for me, and shot just as well, even though it gave up two rounds to it's bigger sibling.

At the beginning of 2014, for a variety of reasons, I went back to carrying the gun I've been coming back to for years and years now - the G19. I find that for concealed carry, it simply offers "more" of everything except mechanical accuracy than anything else I've tried. BUT, if GLOCK disappeared tomorrow, and I had to pick between the two pistols you mentioned, I'd opt for the Sig if I wanted TDA, or the P2000 if I was willing to commit to mastering the LEM trigger.

Regards,

Kevin

Total agree the P30 is a pain to hide compared to the my P229. 5.4 VS 5.43


That little bit caused my P30S 9mm to print when carried IWB at 3: 00 . So I just have to wear loose shirts and I'm fine with that.

Now I wont buy a service pistol with a height over the P30. Still think the P30L is a better deal.


Can a TLR-1 be properly mounted on a P2000?

[Rich]

A gun can feel like a Mercedes in the shop, but run like a Dodge at the range.

I had the fastest car in the HS parking lot 81-82 ! And would take a Mopar over Mercedes any day.

Sorry big fan of Mopar engines 440six pack , 426H . and even the small block 318.

[JohnK]

I had the fastest car in the HS parking lot 81-82 ! And would take a Mopar over Mercedes any day.

Sorry big fan of Mopar engines 440six pack , 426H . and even the small block 318.

Hemi. 'Nuff said.

[JBP55]

I had the fastest car in the HS parking lot 81-82 ! And would take a Mopar over Mercedes any day.

Sorry big fan of Mopar engines 440six pack , 426H . and even the small block 318.

The 340 Dodge Dart was not bad either. Now back to the regular program.

[Rich]

The 340 Dodge Dart was not bad either. Now back to the regular program.

I raced a few in my 74 dodge dart with 318 650holley, headers, 340 heads, cam , shift kit with 60`s on the back and 70`s front

Ate up a lot of 350 chevy.

Now back to 2 of the best hammer fired pistols to be had.