Ah so.Originally Posted by SkyLine1
Ty sir. Much obliged.
Ah so.
Ty sir. Much obliged.
This is something that is a huge issue to me due to my hand size. To give you context, my P-35 looks like a compact gun in my hands. You literally only see the slide as my hands hide most of the frame and the grip. I've been experimenting with having my support hand index finger is touching the frame in front of the trigger guard so the heel of my palm is under the safety/slide lock, along with method A and B. I was actually just watching Miculek's and Vogel's video on about this because I'm desperate to find a way to control my pistol in recoil and having no luck.
I've spent years working on my grip. As someone with strong but bony hands, the traditional thumbs-forward grip with the index finger under the trigger guard only worked for me when I had adequate friction between my support hand and that side of the grip. If my hands were cold (temperature or cold as in not ready for heavy gripping) I couldn't acheive what I would consider to be a confident grip on the gun. I'm closing #2 CoC grippers twice per set so grip-strength isn't my weak point.
This has turned out to be a revelation for me and my hand-to-gun fit:
By allowing my index finger to hook under the trigger guard, I'm able to apply a consistent, inward torque on the frame of the gun with my support hand. With this grip the gun doesn't move in my hands and grip tape or stippling isn't needed. I still grip the gun very firmly but that only adds to the reduction in muzzle flip; it's not necessary for consistency of the grip itself. I'm still working on getting the sights to drop back down as close to the previous alignment as possible but so far it's good enough for decent splits at 5 and 7 yards.
Timely thread. I started experimenting with the Vogel style grip by accident. I can confirm that this is a challenge for smaller handed folks. The main issue I face with this is similar to what OAK and others mentioned: my WH feels like it gets brushed off the side of the pistol. I have to consistently reacquire the grip. I'm sure I'm not doing this perfectly, but so far this is my main challenge. However, when I manage to keep a consistent grip, the accuracy becomes consistently better. So I'm torn...keep grip style B which I can consistently acquire, or keep experimenting with the Vogel style grip.
Two factors have dictated my grip more than anything.
1) Hand size - My hands are on the small size. Size medium Mechanix glove for reference.
2) Gun - Overall grip size, location and sizing of controls, mainly slide lock/release, and slide vs frame width.
Glocks, with only a small slide release located aft of the trigger housing, combined with a frame wider than the slide, have been the easiest gun to get a high grip on. Next would be the M&P 9, with similar slide lock size and location, but frame width is equal to slide, so not quite as high. 1911's have perfect control size and location, but the limiting factor is the wider slide than frame. The P30 is hands down, the most comfortable pistol I've ever shot. With that said, no matter how much I've tried to love them, HK's, due to the large and elongated slide release they insist on implementing in every model, have never allowed me to get a grip I like well enough to commit to the platform.
The above generally drive my finger location, but my current grip would be more associated with grip A. Like everything else, adaptation and proficiency can be achieved through training, be it ultimately for better or worse. For me, it boils down to how comfortable I am with my current results vs what do I NEED to change to get to where I want to be. I'm definitely at a place where I would benefit from additional professional help more so than self diagnosis. This year, I will make the time.
I have used grip A for over a year with glocks. I cannot use it with my CZ's for the same reason you have issues (interferes with trigger press). When using grip A with glocks, I experience less perceived recoil, need less focus on grip pressure, and get better times on Bill Drills than with the, known for flat shooting, CZ's. Using grip B on both guns, I have better results with the CZ's.
It took some getting used to and slowed my draw a bit at first, as well as causing some pain in the middle finger of my support hand. I stuck with it because it really locked my grip in, helped with getting higher on the gun and canting the wrist forward. The combination of these things greatly mitigated muzzle flip in my case. That said, I previously had a problem consciously maintaining grip pressure with my weak hand. With grip A I didn't have to think about it... Everything locked up nicely.
In that year, I went from never having shot a match to Master in IDPA and competing with some A class shooters at the local USPSA clubs, so it seemed to work. Unfortunately now I have developed a form of tendinitis in my WH middle finger from all the torquing. I did some research and found it is ironically called trigger finger. There is pain when I close/open my hand and the middle finger wants to stay curled.
I am now retraining myself to use grip B and had to switch to the CZ's, as I naturally want to grab the glocks with grip A anytime I touch them. I wish I could keep shooting the glocks with grip A...
Last edited by Slowestshooterer; 01-11-2015 at 02:57 PM.
Sorry to hear about the tendinitis, that doesn't sound like much fun.
Thank you. In the end, it is probably a good thing. A grip technique I can only effectively use on a single platform is a likely bad technique. Besides, finger is getting better, the re-training seems to be going well. My index with grip B is starting to feel more natural. I am just need to work on consciously gripping harder with my WH now.
Quick follow up on this thread - I did make the switch over to Grip B, and things seem to be going well. Two things I learned in the process:
1 - Even though it seemed weird when I was first trying to switch over, it now feels pretty solid.
2 - Turns out grip/hand/arm strength is important.
That grip method worked really well for me with a Glock, but I eventually abandoned it due to some wrist issues and less consistent sight movement. It definitely holds the recoil down and mitigates imperfections in the trigger press, though! I'll probably revisit it someday; I still think it has a lot of potential.I've spent years working on my grip. As someone with strong but bony hands, the traditional thumbs-forward grip with the index finger under the trigger guard only worked for me when I had adequate friction between my support hand and that side of the grip. If my hands were cold (temperature or cold as in not ready for heavy gripping) I couldn't acheive what I would consider to be a confident grip on the gun. I'm closing #2 CoC grippers twice per set so grip-strength isn't my weak point.
This has turned out to be a revelation for me and my hand-to-gun fit:
By allowing my index finger to hook under the trigger guard, I'm able to apply a consistent, inward torque on the frame of the gun with my support hand. With this grip the gun doesn't move in my hands and grip tape or stippling isn't needed. I still grip the gun very firmly but that only adds to the reduction in muzzle flip; it's not necessary for consistency of the grip itself. I'm still working on getting the sights to drop back down as close to the previous alignment as possible but so far it's good enough for decent splits at 5 and 7 yards.
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