Safety in IDPA Competition

[littlejerry]

If I, as an SO, don't see that your finger is completely out of the trigger guard unless you are firing at a target, I will call Finger. If I have to do it twice, you are DQed from the match. I'll get over that with no problems.

Yeah... Ya know those threads where people complain about IDPA clubs with a bad attitude?

At some point you have to learn to treat other competitors as profesionals. The rules state "outside of the trigger guard", not " indexed where it pleases the SO"

[ToddG]

littlejerry -- It seems to me like you're agreeing with gringop. He said "outside the trigger guard." You're saying "outside the trigger guard." The rule says outside the trigger guard.

[littlejerry]

littlejerry -- It seems to me like you're agreeing with gringop. He said "outside the trigger guard." You're saying "outside the trigger guard." The rule says outside the trigger guard.

I think you are right. I may have misinterpreted or misread the response. The first part of my response wasn't terribly constructive and isn't adding to the discussion.

[HopetonBrown]

I like the hard register in the ejection port a la LAV, Hack and SouthNarc.

[ToddG]

I think you are right. I may have misinterpreted or misread the response. The first part of my response wasn't terribly constructive and isn't adding to the discussion.

Not picking on gringop, but the first time I read it I thought he meant if he couldn't see where your finger was, he assumed it was in the trigger guard. Knowing gringop, I knew that couldn't be what he intended to convey.

[Wheeler]

I like the hard register in the ejection port a la LAV, Hack and SouthNarc.

That doesn't work for southpaws. :-)

[GJM]

I was at a USPSA match two weekends ago. Newish shooter ran between positions, tripped, started falling, and as he tried not to fall, the gun went up, over slightly, and a bunch of us saw muzzle. Fortunately no shot fired.

Trigger discipline is important, but what is really important is muzzle discipline. If the dude lets one off running between positions, he makes a loud noise, gets DQ'd, and probably learns a more enduring lesson that some shades of gray pestering by the RO. If someone breaks the 180, it is possible he shoots the RO, someone in the squad or observing from up range. Keeping that from happening seems a lot more important.

[littlejerry]

I was at a USPSA match two weekends ago. Newish shooter ran between positions, tripped, started falling, and as he tried not to fall, the gun went up, over slightly, and a bunch of us saw muzzle. Fortunately no shot fired.

Trigger discipline is important, but what is really important is muzzle discipline. If the dude lets one off running between positions, he makes a loud noise, gets DQ'd, and probably learns a more enduring lesson that some shades of gray pestering by the RO. If someone breaks the 180, it is possible he shoots the RO, someone in the squad or observing from up range. Keeping that from happening seems a lot more important.

Agree 100% and its why there are no second chances on breaking the 180.

[ToddG]

Agree 100% that muzzle direction is the most important safety issue. However, that doesn't change the existence of the trigger finger rule (both as part of the cardinal rules and most shooting games' rulebooks) and the need to interpret/enforce it.

[Leroy]

I think it's safer, though I don't have anything handy to cite for you. It boils down to there being physiological reasons the digits can involuntarily contract - startle response, interlimb interaction, postural disturbance. The register position, with the finger outside and above trigger guard and pressed into frame or slide, is further from the finger getting onto the trigger than when the finger is outside the trigger guard but low and in line with the trigger.

Register position also gives a tactile reference point, which helps some people with trigger finger discipline in general. I think solely being outside the trigger guard is also more vulnerable to the problem of trigger checking. My opinion only though.

HKs are legit guns. I don't love their mag catch, though many people do. I don't love that it gives people a third thing to do with their trigger finger. It's even more elegantly simple for the finger to have exactly two tasks - be in register or work the trigger and shoot the gun. But I don't think it's a huge issue with HKs. It's more of a tiny annoyance from the trainer perspective, where in many instances it's harder to tell if a student is pressing the mag catch or putting their finger in an otherwise improper position. Similar to many instances in competitive shooting when trying to tell the difference between 'low and outside the trigger guard' and 'inside the trigger guard.'

The reason I pose the question is that I have had 2 AD reloading a Glock 34 and both times my finger was on the frame and it was really cold. I was applying pressure to the frame with my finger and it slipped off and wacked the trigger. For me and G34, actually CZ too, I find it safer and more comfortable to sort of wrap the front of the trigger guard. My guess is that the frame index was really started by instructors working with multiple pupils and in this setting I could see being important so that a bystander would know that the finger is off the trigger.