Hrngh?Originally Posted by doctorpogo
Hrngh?
JP Visual Design
It's when I /inspire/ eloquence that I think I've done my best job as a writer.
Jim Crews was my original source for this, but I recently heard the same in an AAR from a Pat F*cking Rogers course.
As I've heard it: the AR does not love chambering. That's why we don't chamber-check it, we cross-check it. As it gets dirty and dry it loves chambering less. When chambering from bolt lock, we do not use the bolt release, because we would be missing out on the extra pound of force the buffer spring generates as we run it through its overtravel by racking it.
My thought process re: a 0.7-1.0+ second difference is that if I really am at slide lock and there is still something that needs shooting, that's a very long time. I could fire five shots in that time...
That's because you're a bad ass. If I've emptied my pistol and there's still something that needs shooting and I'm not behind some pretty awesome cover, they're going to have to shoot me in the ass or the heel 'cause that's all they're seeing.
FWIW, that's true of me today, as well. But the main reason I read this forum, instead of countless others, is that someday I'd like to be a bad ass, too.So even though I'm not even high-speed enough to practice reloads at all right now (gotta unf*ck my draw first) I'm taking notes for later.
Sorry for butting in - I'm enjoying the conversation so far. Carry on!
1) I took a Pat Rogers Carbine 2 class back in the spring. While my recollection of the class may be imperfect, I don't recall him discussing your point about reloading the AR. I do remember a number of words I have heard used before, but in combinations that left no doubt what was on Pat's mind, especially if someone inserted a magazine into the AR and did not do a "push-pull," or failed to close their dust cover.
2) This morning, I spent some time practicing reloads with an M&P 9, Gen 4 Glock with a Vickers slide stop, and an HK 45C, and I must admit that perhaps Todd knows something about reloading. If I placed my strong thumb lightly on the slide stop, the reload seemed as fast as auto forwarding. Not sure how I missed this in thirty years of shooting handguns.
I have not found this to be true at all. At least, not any truer than any other gun that is run TOO dirty and TOO dry. The issue is, what is TOO dirty and dry? The AR needs to be wet, no way around it.
I think the difference is that brother Pat gets to see lots of people using lots of different guns/mags/ammo, some of whom have no idea how to keep their guns up and running. I, on the other hand, have seen lots of people using the same guns/mags ammo, and who knew how to keep their guns running. In having seen and participated in sending almost 10,000,000 rounds of 5.56 down range, this has never been an issue for a good shooter, using a good gun/mag and crappy M882. To the best of my knowledge, every single reload during those 10 million rounds was done using the bolt release.
The gun needs to be wet, whether you're in the U.S., Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other climate in the world. Keep it wet, and it will take care of you. So, what is TOO dry? I've found that with a 14.5" M-4, I could easily get 500 rounds between lubings without a problem, as long as I "field lubed" it every 500 rounds or so. Starting with a wet gun, I can count on getting the better part of 1000 rounds trouble free, if I was unable to lube it again. After that, it needed to be lubed if I wanted it to keep running.
With an 11" gun? Different story. Lube more often for best results.
(on the AR thing)
Shame on me then -- it was gjm's AAR that I misremembered it from. I'll work on a better attribution, and will also unpack my copy of 'some of the answer.'
Ignore Alien Orders
For the past 25 years or so, I've always used the bolt release to chamber a round with AR15's--as SLG mentioned, no problems. I've taken classes with Pat--he uses the bolt release.
As noted, gross and fine motor skills are a red herring--despite what is commonly believed, pretty much ALL pistol manipulations, including hitting the magazine release and pulling the trigger, are fine motor skills.
For my first decade in LE we were trained to use the overhand method on the slide--works OK, but is slow. Then in the wake of 9/11 we began to get more training from folks in the SOF community who strongly advocated using the slide stop. Thus for the past 10 years we have been using using the weak hand thumb to release the slide stop. Turns out it is definitely faster and just as consistent to release the slide using the slide stop...
Where was that AAR? I recall doing one after the Pat Rogers class, but I couldn't locate the AAR when I read your initial reference to AR loading technique.
Doc, in my experimenting today, despite my long time use of the support thumb, the strong thumb seemed faster than the support thumb, so assuming no issue with the ergos of a specific pistol, why the support thumb?
Reply With Quote