Reloading technique question

[Josh Runkle]

[first post on the forum; not an SME, unless the thread drifts to electronics]
I crutch a lot on the sophistry "what is it for?" I don't know much about shootin' and fightin', but I have not overheard a lot of anecdotes that contained an emergency reload where it wasn't tied to a malfunction clearance. In other words, I can't recall hearing about a handgun fight wherein the protagonist was shooting, was interrupted by an empty magazine, and went immediately back to shooting. The mindset I've picked up from my trainers is that slide lock, regardless of the cause, is really just another malfunction.

So I figure if I'm going to train on an ER technique (which I probably shouldn't be wasting much time with, unless I'm more concerned with sporting applications), it should probably be the one that is most like a continuum of my malfunction clearance techniques. If I were smart enough to carry two pistols, my clearance technique and my ER tech would both be to find the working pistol. I'm way not that cool, so my current malf approach is TRB (followed by what Clint Smith calls rackachickaf*cka, in the event of a doublefeed). That continuum is currently all built around an overhand rack. Therefore, my ER technique, in the rare event that I worry about it at all, is an overhand rack.

Am I underestimating the significance of the slide lock reload, folks?

Though others may (validly) disagree, I wholeheartedly agree with this. It is exactly what I do as well.

[Josh Runkle]

There seem to be great differences of opinion on how to perform an emergency reload. Just yesterday, I read where Randy Lee from Apex said that using the slide stop on an M&P damages that part over time, and that using the ambi portion of the slide stop, which is touted as a benefit of the M&P, is particularly bad and sure to lead to failure. In an AAR review from a Pat McNamara class, the author quoted Pat as saying never to use the overhand method as it is likely to induce a stoppage, and you should use the slide stop. I believe Todd Green advocates using your strong side thumb, where Larry Vickers says strong side thumb is likely to induce a stoppage. Bill Rogers says auto forwarding is fine, if it works in your gun. DB, in a post above, says he doesn't count on auto forwarding, but if it works it is a bonus, and it has never led to a stoppage for him. A LE/military trainer I respect, recently said on the Gunsite List, that any technique for an emergency reload is more likely to induce a stoppage, and that his procedure is to draw another full size service pistol. The arguments for and against various methods range from technical, like Randy Lee, to efficiency from Todd Green, to your "under stress" argument.

To answer your question, like I presume for most here at PF, my use of the handgun is serious, and at any particular moment I may be interested in using the handgun offensively to harvest meat, defensively to protect myself or my family, in competition, and just for giggles. I do believe that rather than rise to the occasion, we will default to our level of training, and that the goal of our training is to ingrain proper techniques, so that during an emergency, we perform at the highest level.

It is often said, only half joking, that when people debate topics, they start with logic, drift to emotion, and if that fails appeal to religion. I believe the shooting equivalent of that is the "shoot house versus square range argument" which I commonly see lately, where the shoot house is offered as reason for whatever they want to do. I was perusing a recent thread on some version of the 1911 versus Glock debate, and the supposed SME said, in effect, I love my 1911 because it has a great trigger, shoots accurately and is reliable, but then I took it in a shoot house and now I carry a Glock. No explanation as to why the 1911 didn't work in the shoot house, but just expect us to understand that it was apparent after the shoot house. Another real SME, that trains lots of people, based on his experience, swears a Glock is unreliable in a shoot house.

The very first time I entered auto rotation in a helicopter, lost an engine at takeoff in a jet, and entered a fully developed spin, I experienced fear and some confusion. Training a lot, with high quality instructors and in simulators, has allowed me to push my emotions aside, and perform a series of responses oriented towards achieving the best outcome. I think we are trying to do the same thing here with our firearms training -- determine the "best practices," for any particular skill, and practice realistically, so we can deploy our skills at the highest level.

Back to the topic of the emergency reload, I am think that there are very different opinions as to what exactly the best practice is.

It sounds as if you understand that many respectable trainers use many respected/disrespected techniques. I know you are questioning others to learn more and grow as a shooter and instructor, but you seem knowledgeable already. I am curious, what do you currently use and why?

[NickDrak]

I had posted about my "auto-forward" experiences with the M&P (9mm) platform and the issue I experienced with duty/hollowpoint ammo over a year ago....

I have tried auto forwarding on 4 different M&P9 (fullsize) pistols, and at a rate of 5 to 7 out of 10 times it resulted in the nose of several different hollowpoint rounds getting lodged underneath the feedramp of the barrel. This completely locks the pistol up and must be cleared in a similar manner as is used to clear a double feed (remedial action).

I have not seen the above described malfunction with other caliber M&P platform pistols.

[GJM]

Since I am a student, and not an instructor, I fortunately don't have the burden of recommending any particular technique to others. Since I was born male, I knew everything there was to know about firearms by age 16. Not sure my practices mean anything, but since you ask:

I was trained at Gunsite, 20 years ago, to use the overhand technique as it was supposedly a "gross motor skill," although I was always curious how one could draw their pistol, prep the trigger, shoot accurately, figure out their pistol was out of cartridges, get a magazine into the pistol but not hit a slide stop with either their strong or support thumb. Later I shot IPSC, and like everyone else that owned a PACT timer, I started using my thumb, and in my case, my support thumb. When I shot 1911 pistols, they didn't auto forward unless the slide stop needed to be replaced. When Glock pistols first came out, I tried to use my support thumb on the little slide stop, and if that didn't work manipulated the slide overhand. In the last five or eight years I have been shooting HK pistols, I started experiencing the slide auto forwarding and initially was puzzled by it. After years of it (auto forwarding) happening sporadically, I developed a technique of inserting the magazine, and if it didn't auto forward, immediately hitting the slide stop with my support thumb as I reacquired my shooting grip. Never, have I had a round jump out of the magazine or otherwise have a stoppage when the pistol was auto-forwarding. When I was at a Rogers Shooting School class back in April, Bill Rogers discussed this, and how some force at the rear of the magazine made many pistols auto forward. Incidentally, Rogers teaches using a sling shot, as opposed to overhand method, for any required slide manipulations. Post Rogers, I found that with my M&P and HK pistols, I can make them auto forward consistently, but not always, by seating the magazine firmly, but not roughly, and then imparting some "body english" with the palm of my hand as I make the final insertion. Incidentally, the amount of force I apply to the magazine bottom is no more than when I make a tactical reload or slide forward reload, and some pistols auto forward even when you are trying not to make them do so. However, anytime I attempt to make the pistol auto forward, I assume it will not and am prepared to follow-up with the slide stop, and if that doesn't work easily like on the Glock 29 I sometimes carry in Alaska, I go to the slide. Finally, after almost getting my face stomped by a cow moose in deep snow, when I was on snowshoes this past winter, and fired a shot that turned the moose at 3 yards while falling over backwards when my attempt to pivot in deep snow failed, I often carry a .44 in a chest rig out in the field, and would draw a second handgun, if available, rather than reload in the middle of something.

So, to answer your question, I hope for it to auto forward, but always plan to use the slide stop with my support thumb (although I am intrigued by Todd's statement that the strong thumb is faster) and fall back to the sling shot if I have a stoppage or the slide stop is unsuccessful. Over 90 per cent of the time, I have a complete off body back-up in the form of a Gunsite/TR/Rogers trained and armed wife, and in most instances in Alaska, I have a long gun in my hands, making my handgun a back-up. My technique is always subject to revision based on being shown something better, and the point of my starting this thread is to try to gather some more information.

[GJM]

I had posted about my "auto-forward" experiences with the M&P (9mm) platform and the issue I experienced with duty/hollowpoint ammo over a year ago....

I have tried auto forwarding on 4 different M&P9 (fullsize) pistols, and at a rate of 5 to 7 out of 10 times it resulted in the nose of several different hollowpoint rounds getting lodged underneath the feedramp of the barrel. This completely locks the pistol up and must be cleared in a similar manner as is used to clear a double feed (remedial action).

I have not seen the above described malfunction with other caliber M&P platform pistols.

Nick, looks like your reply crossed with mine. Since I train mostly with ball ammo, most of my auto forwarding experience with the M&P 9 pistols has been with ball. I have two M&P9 full size pistols, one a thumb safety model with Smith PC mods purchased about three years ago, and another full size without a thumb safety, with Apex mods, bought back in May. I just took a 147 HST cartridge and auto forwarded each pistol ten times in a row, and in each instance the JHP cartridge fed properly. I then repeated the test, 10 repetitions each pistol, with a Ranger 124 +P T load, and same result. I wonder if it is something about your pistols, your ammo, or how you perform the auto forward, since I am not observing this?

[Dagga Boy]

Though others may (validly) disagree, I wholeheartedly agree with this. It is exactly what I do as well.

I actually teach the "Emergency" (we call it a "Combat") reload as a "shooter induced malfunction". Essentially, by failing to reload and shooting the gun empty, the shooter made a non functioning weapon. Easy to fix situation, yes, but unlike during the much prefered "Tactical" or "Speed" reload, where the gun is able to fire during the reload process.

How this reload is both performed, and taught by various instructors is very dependent on who they are teaching, their frame of reference and experience, and the target audience,and where those students will be using the technique. Many will have a little bit of a different take on things. Personally, I also teach different methods with different firearms. Over the years of teaching multiple systems, I have found that I need to fine tune many TTP's to specific guns on everything from grip, to reloads. Of the instructors mentioned, I am sure all can give a very good reason for what they teach and why. Good students can then take input form multiple quality instructors and fit the way they do things to their particular needs. Poor instructors who teach on the "that's the way we always have done it" method, combined with un-caring, or under educated students can lead to disaster.

One of the reasons that I signed up for this forum and breaking my trend towards lack of forum participation is that there are a great many folks on here who I disagree with on various ways they do things, but I very much respect them because they can articulate why they do what they do.

[NickDrak]

I do not want to derail this thread too far off-topic and turn it into a why I don't "Auto-forward" thread, so I will shortly be starting a new thread showing my results with "auto-forwarding" with a brand new M&P9 full-size that I just picked up earlier today. The results are kinda scary and not exactly what I expected based on my previous experiences with my earlier production M&P9's....

Stand-by for link to new thread

[ToddG]

First and most imporantly: being able to do it is more important than exactly how you do it.

Having said that:

• the whole "fine motor skill versus gross motor skill" thing just kills me. Don't take my word for it, google those terms and (except in the gun community where they've been misappropriated) you'll see that racking the slide with you hand is also a fine motor skill. Anything that relies on the fingers is a fine motor skill. As others have pointed out, if I have the fine motor skill to hit my magazine release then I have the fine motor skill to hit my slide release. If you examine where the slide rack approach came from, you'll see it had more to do with a particular gun company's product limitations than any actual "tactical" benefit.
• if you can comfortably and consistently reach the slide release lever with your strong hand thumb, it is the fastest way to reload with most handguns. Performed properly, a slidelock reload done this way takes exactly the same amount of time as an IPSC-style speed (in battery) reload.

[jetfire]

[*]if you can comfortably and consistently reach the slide release lever with your strong hand thumb, it is the fastest way to reload with most handguns. Performed properly, a slidelock reload done this way takes exactly the same amount of time as an IPSC-style speed (in battery) reload.

Data! I performed 50 IPSC reloads and 50 slide lock reloads using a Glock 34-style pistol with the extended mag release so I can reach it with my strong hand thumb. To get data on pure reload speed, I used and 8 inch target at 5 yards as my target.

IPSC Style Reload: Average reload time - 1.29 seconds. Fastest reload: 1.01.
Slidelock Reload: Average Reload time - 1.31 seconds. Fastest reload 1.09.

I didn't bother to computer standard deviation or do any fancy science-y stuff, I just added up all the number and divided by 50 for each data-set. All the reloads were done from a USPSA belt with the same mag pouch to keep things consistent. I have no doubt that if I plotted all the reloads on a graph, the plots would look basically identical. 2 hundredths of a second is so small a difference that it's not really a difference at all.

For giggles, I tried 10 reloads where I went "over the top" and racked the slide. My fastest was 2.03 seconds, which is pretty slow compared to slide-lock.

[JAD]

For giggles, I tried 10 reloads where I went "over the top" and racked the slide. My fastest was 2.03 seconds, which is pretty slow compared to slide-lock.

That delta matches my expectations. I, personally, am unconvinced that taking an extra seven tenths of a second to perform what still seems to be a fairly unusual action is a big deal. By contrast, having an extra technique to practice, when I don't practice enough as it is, is a big deal. So for me, overhand racking is good enough. If AF consistently works with GJM's guns, I would be totally down with that (GJM is not the kind of guy to stand there looking at his pistol when the slide happens to not go forward). I like to minimize the size of the slide lock on my pistols so I don't bump it, but I'm sure it's already obvious that most of you guys are way cooler than me. Surely the extra practice of a low-priority technique (except in competition) is no big deal if you're putting thousands of rounds downrange a month.

Two post-scripts, though. I've been taught never to use the slide release on an AR to load the weapon, as it is a technique that will induce a failure when your gun gets dirty enough; the extra force of racking to release is significant enough in the AR to matter. I don't think that applies with pistols; they don't usually have that much overtravel.

Second, I'll never question anyone practicing a fast ER, because frankly there are very few things as cool-looking as a sub-second reload. John McGuire used to flash those in Kansas City, and it always blew my mind.