Reloading technique question

[GJM]

I searched for this information in the Forum, but failing to see this question answered, decided to start a new thread. If my search was faulty, feel free to nuke this thread.

I am aware of the various ways of speed reloading a pistol from slide lock -- using an overhand method to manipulate the slide, using a sling shot method to manipulate the slide, using either the strong or support hand to manipulate the slide lock, or inserting the magazine so as to cause the slide to go forward without manipulating the slide lock.

This was a busy training year, and as I got ready for a Rogers class with a P30, I noted that most every vigorous insertion of a magazine caused the slide to go forward without touching the slide stop. Bill Rogers discussed this, including the caveat to know how your weapon ran, and if you used the vigorous insertion method, and the slide didn't go forward, to be able to quickly solve the problem. Over time, I realized that by vigorously inserting the magazine with pressure on the rear of the magazine, I could make the slide on my P30 or M&P pistols go forward over 95% of the time. While there have been instances where the slide didn't go forward at insertion, never once this year, on any year, have I induced a stoppage inserting the magazine vigorously. As I shoot mostly HK and M&P pistols, I have trained to insert the magazine vigorously and follow up with my support thumb on the slide stop if necessary.

On another forum, someone made the comment that allowing the slide to go forward at insertion of the magazine was poor technique as it was likely to lead to stoppages -- in their experience 10 per cent of the time. I was amazed as I haven't had one ever, and with between 15 and 20,000 rounds down range so far this year thru HK, M&P and Glock pistols, I have done a lot of reloads.

I am curious whether others are using the technique of vigorously inserting the magazine so as to cause the slide to go forward, and whether they are seeing stoppages with this technique?

[rsa-otc]

On my M&P 45 I don't even need to vigorously insert the magazine for it to autoforward. It does so 100% of the time. I don't rely on this. My strong thumb is poised to hit the release as needed. When I dry fire I use dummy rounds and exclusively use the thumb to drop the slide since the magazine with one dummy round doesn't weigh enough to cause the slide to autoforward. So I get plenty of practice using my thumb if needed.
In 3 years of training & competition I have yet to induse a missfeed. Now that I have said that tomorrow will be my first. Just the way the world works. :-)

[ToddG]

I call it auto-forwarding and would never depend on it. Someone could write a book just about pistol-training.com students who showed up, insisted their guns alway auto-forward, then had it either fail to go forward or induce a stoppage when it came time to run the F.A.S.T.

If it happens, fine. But don't rely on it. What works "every time" when you're thinking about it on the range isn't the same as working every time.

[GJM]

I am OK if the slide doesn't auto forward, but what I am interested in is how it might induce a stoppage. Can you elaborate, since I haven't experienced any stoppage with this?

[seabiscuit]

Just guessing here, but if the slide starts forward before the mag is fully inserted, it could lead to problems.

[jslaker]

I could also see weak mag springs allowing to top round to bounce slightly and cause a misfeed given the amount of force needed to make some guns auto forward.

Personally, if my thumb can reach the slidestop, I don't see any reason not to just preload it. You get the same type of near instant release but without having to worry about that 1 in 10 times the slide doesn't auto forward on its own.

[Dagga Boy]

I like it when it happens. I have never depended on it, even in guns that did it regularly. With that said, I have never had a malfunction because of it either. I look at it as sort of a bonus, not a technique.

[Josh Runkle]

I searched for this information in the Forum, but failing to see this question answered, decided to start a new thread. If my search was faulty, feel free to nuke this thread.

I am aware of the various ways of speed reloading a pistol from slide lock -- using an overhand method to manipulate the slide, using a sling shot method to manipulate the slide, using either the strong or support hand to manipulate the slide lock, or inserting the magazine so as to cause the slide to go forward without manipulating the slide lock.

This was a busy training year, and as I got ready for a Rogers class with a P30, I noted that most every vigorous insertion of a magazine caused the slide to go forward without touching the slide stop. Bill Rogers discussed this, including the caveat to know how your weapon ran, and if you used the vigorous insertion method, and the slide didn't go forward, to be able to quickly solve the problem. Over time, I realized that by vigorously inserting the magazine with pressure on the rear of the magazine, I could make the slide on my P30 or M&P pistols go forward over 95% of the time. While there have been instances where the slide didn't go forward at insertion, never once this year, on any year, have I induced a stoppage inserting the magazine vigorously. As I shoot mostly HK and M&P pistols, I have trained to insert the magazine vigorously and follow up with my support thumb on the slide stop if necessary.

On another forum, someone made the comment that allowing the slide to go forward at insertion of the magazine was poor technique as it was likely to lead to stoppages -- in their experience 10 per cent of the time. I was amazed as I haven't had one ever, and with between 15 and 20,000 rounds down range so far this year thru HK, M&P and Glock pistols, I have done a lot of reloads.

I am curious whether others are using the technique of vigorously inserting the magazine so as to cause the slide to go forward, and whether they are seeing stoppages with this technique?

I feel as if it is appropriate to ask what your usage of the pistol is? Defensive? Offensive (military)? Competition? Shits and Giggles?

Shooting on a range is very different than shooting under stress and fear. In a defensive scenario where you are scared, your body loses a good deal of blood from your hands and feet and skin. This keeps you from bleeding everywhere during a fight. I have seen many videos where someone is cut on their arms or hands and they don't bleed until immediately after the fight. Then, when the fight is over, about five seconds later, they start gushing. This reduction in bloodflow to your hands may be relatively minor, or in some cases it could potentially be like dipping your hands in ice for 20 minutes (to numb them) and then trying to thumb your slide release. Additionally, the amygdala causes adrenaline, cortisol, epinephrine and norepinephrine to flood into your system when you are incredibly afraid. These actually improve your gross motor skills. So, scientifically speaking, when the "fear response" centers of the brain are activated, you lose a bit of your fine motor skills and gain a bit of gross motor skills. (yes, I realize trigger press is a fine motor skill)

If you are training in a competitive sense, or in a scenario where you are "ready" for a fight and unafraid, then the slide stop/slide release might make most sense. If on the other hand, you are training for a defensive scenario, then consider how your body feels when a deer jumps out in from of your vehicle and you grasp down on the steering wheel and your heart is pounding. IMHO, in that scenario, it makes more sense to train for a motion that is congruent with extreme fear. Sure racking over the top of the gun takes slightly longer, and yes it is possible that you might (in that moment) be perfectly fine to use the slide release. To me, when considering defensive shooting, it makes more sense to study the "most likely reactions and outcomes" of a fight and then train for that.

As for the "autoforwarding" my m&p's do it 95% of the time for my friends and 5-10% of the time for me. When it happens I am on autopilot and still tap/rack. I feel like slowing down to assess the situation is much worse than losing a round and going through tap/rack/bang.

[GJM]

There seem to be great differences of opinion on how to perform an emergency reload. Just yesterday, I read where Randy Lee from Apex said that using the slide stop on an M&P damages that part over time, and that using the ambi portion of the slide stop, which is touted as a benefit of the M&P, is particularly bad and sure to lead to failure. In an AAR review from a Pat McNamara class, the author quoted Pat as saying never to use the overhand method as it is likely to induce a stoppage, and you should use the slide stop. I believe Todd Green advocates using your strong side thumb, where Larry Vickers says strong side thumb is likely to induce a stoppage. Bill Rogers says auto forwarding is fine, if it works in your gun. DB, in a post above, says he doesn't count on auto forwarding, but if it works it is a bonus, and it has never led to a stoppage for him. A LE/military trainer I respect, recently said on the Gunsite List, that any technique for an emergency reload is more likely to induce a stoppage, and that his procedure is to draw another full size service pistol. The arguments for and against various methods range from technical, like Randy Lee, to efficiency from Todd Green, to your "under stress" argument.

To answer your question, like I presume for most here at PF, my use of the handgun is serious, and at any particular moment I may be interested in using the handgun offensively to harvest meat, defensively to protect myself or my family, in competition, and just for giggles. I do believe that rather than rise to the occasion, we will default to our level of training, and that the goal of our training is to ingrain proper techniques, so that during an emergency, we perform at the highest level.

It is often said, only half joking, that when people debate topics, they start with logic, drift to emotion, and if that fails appeal to religion. I believe the shooting equivalent of that is the "shoot house versus square range argument" which I commonly see lately, where the shoot house is offered as reason for whatever they want to do. I was perusing a recent thread on some version of the 1911 versus Glock debate, and the supposed SME said, in effect, I love my 1911 because it has a great trigger, shoots accurately and is reliable, but then I took it in a shoot house and now I carry a Glock. No explanation as to why the 1911 didn't work in the shoot house, but just expect us to understand that it was apparent after the shoot house. Another real SME, that trains lots of people, based on his experience, swears a Glock is unreliable in a shoot house.

The very first time I entered auto rotation in a helicopter, lost an engine at takeoff in a jet, and entered a fully developed spin, I experienced fear and some confusion. Training a lot, with high quality instructors and in simulators, has allowed me to push my emotions aside, and perform a series of responses oriented towards achieving the best outcome. I think we are trying to do the same thing here with our firearms training -- determine the "best practices," for any particular skill, and practice realistically, so we can deploy our skills at the highest level.

Back to the topic of the emergency reload, I am think that there are very different opinions as to what exactly the best practice is.

[JAD]

Back to the topic of the emergency reload, I am think that there are very different opinions as to what exactly the best practice is.

[first post on the forum; not an SME, unless the thread drifts to electronics]
I crutch a lot on the sophistry "what is it for?" I don't know much about shootin' and fightin', but I have not overheard a lot of anecdotes that contained an emergency reload where it wasn't tied to a malfunction clearance. In other words, I can't recall hearing about a handgun fight wherein the protagonist was shooting, was interrupted by an empty magazine, and went immediately back to shooting. The mindset I've picked up from my trainers is that slide lock, regardless of the cause, is really just another malfunction.

So I figure if I'm going to train on an ER technique (which I probably shouldn't be wasting much time with, unless I'm more concerned with sporting applications), it should probably be the one that is most like a continuum of my malfunction clearance techniques. If I were smart enough to carry two pistols, my clearance technique and my ER tech would both be to find the working pistol. I'm way not that cool, so my current malf approach is TRB (followed by what Clint Smith calls rackachickaf*cka, in the event of a doublefeed). That continuum is currently all built around an overhand rack. Therefore, my ER technique, in the rare event that I worry about it at all, is an overhand rack.

Am I underestimating the significance of the slide lock reload, folks?