wadcutter in snubbie

[Jeep]

LSP is working with Chuck on that, which is good because my inability to post photos is rivaled only by my inability to fix the back sight of a Model 15.

[Dov]

I believe there was some discussion way back, but it probably wasn't very widespread. The experimenters and gun cranks fooled with different types of bullets because RN bullets didn't work all that great in many cases, especially on game animals. I've shot game with different types of bullets, and RN bullets in any caliber, even 45 auto and 45 Colt, isn't very spectacular, even to the point of jack rabbits sometimes getting up and running off after body hits. It just doesn't seem to happen with SWC bullets, especially in 44 and 45 Colt cal loads. Looking at bullet wounds in different game animals, RN bullets make pretty clean wounds, most animals shot with SWC bullets had bloodshot and bruised tissue around the bullet wounds. Coyotes shot with SWC loads looked like they got hit with a baseball bat, even on peripheral hits. I don't have vast experience, but can only describe the difference I've seen on various game animals as profound, between RN and Keith type SWC bullets. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't willingly use RN bullets to shoot anything alive if I had a choice, just based on hunting with various loads. People may be different, and easier to kill, but there was discussion of RN loads in Keiths and other writings in the past, for hunting use and law enforcement and defensive use.

I've seen you mention this in other threads, curious about approximate MV of those SWC loads used on coyotes? Like ~850 fps?

[Malamute]

I've seen you mention this in other threads, curious about approximate MV of those SWC loads used on coyotes? Like ~850 fps?

There were 2 in particular I recall shooting with 9 grs Unique w Lyman 429421 cast bullet in a 4" 29. Muzzle velocity of that load is close to 1000 fps best estimate (old Unique powder and data, like mid 1980s), but Ive never chronographed them, just based on load info. One coyote was at about 75 yards the other was a bit over 200 best I could tell. I roughly paced it when I when to get it.

The Lyman bullet is supposed to be about 245 gr cast from wheel weights.

[Dog Face Gremlin]

Why you boys bad mouthing BB...I've shot most of their ammunition types offered and like them....good performance....just found a box of Buffalo Bore 38 special 158gr. Keith Hard Cast +P Outdoorsman I had....was wondering if this pressure was too much for my S&W model 36 2" Bbl..........really like those Keith HC.

[HCM]

Why you boys bad mouthing BB...I've shot most of their ammunition types offered and like them....good performance....just found a box of Buffalo Bore 38 special 158gr. Keith Hard Cast +P Outdoorsman I had....was wondering if this pressure was too much for my S&W model 36 2" Bbl..........really like those Keith HC.

You know this is a 10 year old thread, yes?

The issue with BB’s 148 grain wadcutter loads vs standard velocity is that the heaviest hottest load we can find is not as effective as a soft shooting accurate round. Particularly in light weight J frames. At a certain point harder recoiling rounds cost time and increase the risk of missed shots.

BB 148 WC is also almost guaranteed to exit the body except on humans due to construction and velocity, which may or may not be a problem for you.

The results of the standard velocity WC shootings I have seen leaves the bullet lodged on the far side of the torso.

Could you shoot those +P 158 SWC loads in a steel J frame like a model 36 ? Yes. Would I want to ? No.

In a bigger gun for outdoors use? Sure.

[Outpost75]

Yep, somehow the 130gr FMJ became the defacto standard fodder.

The Winchester "Service Grade" 130 FMJ flat-nose is speed loader friendly for a standard-pressure, backup reload in an Airweight. It has a .24" diameter meplat which enables better "crush" than a round nose, and is less likely to glance off auto glass or sheet metal in oblique impacts.

I still have several hundred rounds of "full charge" wadcutter ammo as loaded at Winchester New Haven for NYPD in the 1980s which gives 720 fps from a 2-inch barrel, which I carry in my EDC gun(s).




My EDCs since I retired are a pair of Parkerized Colt Agents with light alloy frame, heavy barrel and shrouded ejector rod. I very much prefer these Colts to S&W J-frames because they have true 2-inch barrels, not 1-7/8" and barrel-cylinder gaps on both guns are pass 0.005"/hold 0.006", instead of 0.008+ being common of many current S&W J-frames.

Result is that the Colts carry SIX rounds, not five. They also produce about 50 fps higher velocity than the two J-frames I sold.

In my testing the 135 Speer Gold Dot requires 800 fps to expand. While I choose not to run +P in these guns, the Gold Dot Short Barrel does 800+ fps easily in the Agent, whereas a 1-7/8" S&W with cylinder gap of 0.008" cannot and WILL NOT!!!!

[rainman]

My EDCs since I retired are a pair of Parkerized Colt Agents with light alloy frame, heavy barrel and shrouded ejector rod. I very much prefer these Colts to S&W J-frames because they have true 2-inch barrels, not 1-7/8" and barrel-cylinder gaps on both guns are pass 0.005"/hold 0.006", instead of 0.008+ being common of many current S&W J-frames.

Result is that the Colts carry SIX rounds, not five. They also produce about 50 fps higher velocity than the two J-frames I sold.

In my testing the 135 Speer Gold Dot requires 800 fps to expand. While I choose not to run +P in these guns, the Gold Dot Short Barrel does 800+ fps easily in the Agent, whereas a 1-7/8" S&W with cylinder gap of 0.008" cannot and WILL NOT!!!!

Very nice EDC.

I have an older generation Agent w/exposed ejector rod and a later version Detective Spcl w/shrouded rod. I would love to see a modern version of the Agent. The D-frame Colts are (for me) much easier to shoot well compared to a J-frame. Both of mine have great actions and shoot to POA with wadcutters and most standard pressure practice ammo.


-Rainman

[Outpost75]

Very nice EDC.

I have an older generation Agent w/exposed ejector rod and a later version Detective Spcl w/shrouded rod. I would love to see a modern version of the Agent. The D-frame Colts are (for me) much easier to shoot well compared to a J-frame. Both of mine have great actions and shoot to POA with wadcutters and most standard pressure practice ammo.


-Rainman

I have examined several recent production King Cobras and all had "issues."

Shrouded barrel Colts can be found affordably used on GunBroker, but they require VERY careful inspection. While an "open front gage" can be repaired on a steel frame by setting the barrel back and refitting, (a $150 job if done right) this isn't possible with an alloy frame without damaging it.

Correcting a loose barrel gap on a Cobra or Agent requires first correcting end shake and then refitting a "long" (+0.005") cylinder. Best to take your gauges with you to do an a LTI in the shop before filling out the transfer form. Don't buy the gun if gap exceeds 0.007" pass / 0.008" hold. Otherwise you need to know a factory-trained Colt Smith with a stash of customer service "plus" D-frame cylinders or a vault of parts gleaned from destroyed guns to inspect and select one. You might get lucky...

Both of my Agents strike 2-1/2" high at 25 yards with wadcutter and 2" with 130 FMJ or Speer 135 Gold Dot. Acceptable. They shoot exactly to point of aim at 25 yards with the Winchester 110-grain Non+P Silvertip standard-pressure load. This load was optimized for Airweight frames. It develops 850 fps from a 2-inch gun assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance (0.006" B-C gap) penetrates 12 inches of calibrated gelatin and expands to 0.50"+. Hard to find at retail. The cop shops might still have it.

[Malamute]

I have examined several recent production King Cobras and all had "issues."

Shrouded barrel Colts can be found affordably used on GunBroker, but they require VERY careful inspection. While an "open front gage" can be repaired on a steel frame by setting the barrel back and refitting, (a $150 job if done right) this isn't possible with an alloy frame without damaging it.

Correcting a loose barrel gap on a Cobra or Agent requires first correcting end shake and then refitting a "long" (+0.005") cylinder. Best to take your gauges with you to do an a LTI in the shop before filling out the transfer form. Don't buy the gun if gap exceeds 0.007" pass / 0.008" hold. Otherwise you need to know a factory-trained Colt Smith with a stash of customer service "plus" D-frame cylinders or a vault of parts gleaned from destroyed guns to inspect and select one. You might get lucky...

Both of my Agents strike 2-1/2" high at 25 yards with wadcutter and 2" with 130 FMJ or Speer 135 Gold Dot. Acceptable. They shoot exactly to point of aim at 25 yards with the Winchester 110-grain Non+P Silvertip standard-pressure load. This load was optimized for Airweight frames. It develops 850 fps from a 2-inch gun assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance (0.006" B-C gap) penetrates 12 inches of calibrated gelatin and expands to 0.50"+. Hard to find at retail. The cop shops might still have it.

I appreciate the knowledge and detail of your posts. Ive learned quite a lot over time.

I was lucky. I bought a like new parkerized Agent on GB, the BC gap was .010". I contacted Nelson Ford regarding cost to fix it, and also took the chance on a complete parts set for a DS that I thought Id try first, and at least have various spare parts if nothing else. The DS cylinder dropped in, gave approximately half or a little less BC gap, and timed perfectly. I wasnt aware of +.005 cylinders in the Colts, I'll have to measure mine. It runs in any event. Really like the Colt for daily pocket carry. Pachmayr Compacs and Traffic Cone orange on the front sight were the only other things needed.

[Outpost75]

"Plus" cylinders are gleaned by 100% inspection and sorting as they come off the Hitachi-Seki automated machining center. Batches are then lotted up for assembly. Cylinders gauging at max tolerance are segregated out for customer service repairs or rework of production guns which don't pass front gage after their initial proofing.

A normal production gun which has "open front gage" and exceeds max B-C gap of 0.008 pass / 0.009 hold, after correction by refittting with a "plus" cylinder will normally come in at min at 0.003 pass / 0.004 hold. This gap generally will not increase more than 0.001" after reproof and should not exceed 0.001, which cannot be felt after reproofing. Max end shake allowed after refit/reproof was 0.002" when I was QA Manager at Ruger Newport Operations in the 1980s. We benefited from the collective knowledge of several former Colt, S&W and Springfield Armory engineers WBR recruited and largely adopted those practices, because they had a sound statistical basis and worked in practice.

Your Detective Dpecial replacement cylinder from the parts kit was likely a "plus" refitted at the factory because that particular gun didn't gage up after proofing the first time around. Standard shop practice. We followed the same procedure in building the "Six" series at Ruger when I was there.