To ASP or not to ASP, that is the question.....

[jnc36rcpd]

I understand the appeal of the Taser, but we're running about a 50% failure rate (granted, out of a small number of annual deployments). Some of this is training which I am trying to correct, but much is the nature of the beast. You have no control over what clothing the suspect is wearing or the precise location that probes hit (e.g.: the heavy unzipped jacket or the shirt underneath).

Our OC (originally Bodyguard 5% and now Sabre Red) has been highly effective. It also allows for multiple deployments which is helpful if the suspect doesn't get a full dose or you have multiple offenders. As Chuck suggests, it is highly effective had moving the less motivated mopes away from the action.

[Chuck Haggard]

Our Taser failures have been in the 50% range as well.

[czech6]

Overall our Taser success rate is around 70%. Most suspects that get Tased give up as soon as they feel pain or they are overwhelmed by the sensation of pain and won't fight back while the power is on. The last guy I tased, had about 6" of probe spread on his abdomen. He was drunk and we had to cuff him under power, but the Taser wasn't producing NMI that would affect his arms. The success rate with Tasers on motivated or messed up individuals who really want to fight is really low, probably less than 10%. One part of that is that a motivated individual isn't inclined to give up his back. The other is by policy we've moved Tasers just below deadly force and by the time the officer can use the Taser, the opportunity to deploy the Taser into the suspect's back and achieve effective NMI is usually not there. When Tasers are used on these individuals, even if both probes connect it's usually in the front of the body with less than 8" of spread, there's very limited NMI, and pain compliance isn't going to work.

I like Tasers, for most suspects that give up at the first signs of pain they are great. I think they highly over rated on the really motivated individuals that are going to fight.

[jnc36rcpd]

While we train our troops to go for a back shot if possible, frontal and chest deployments are still authorized. As usual, however, it comes down to training. We have been emphasizing cuffing under power. If you watch a few episodes of any reality cop show, you will quickly see someone get the taser treatment which has to be repeated because no one jumped in to cuff the suspect.

Recently, I watched a YouTube video that involved multiple taser activations. One officer attempted ineffectual hands-on while the other officer stood back to witness ineffectual taser cycles. One could hear the taer cycle which indicates a bad connection. Had the taser officer stepped forward and established a third point of contact, it might have been a much shorter and better video. Tasers are great. but we need to step up our training.

[Coyotesfan97]

Tasers are the same level as impact weapons for us so if I can hit someone with a baton I canTaser him. OC is just above verbal commands for us. I'm surprised more suspects aren't taken to jail with orange faces.


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[czech6]

W
Recently, I watched a YouTube video that involved multiple taser activations. One officer attempted ineffectual hands-on while the other officer stood back to witness ineffectual taser cycles. One could hear the taer cycle which indicates a bad connection. Had the taser officer stepped forward and established a third point of contact, it might have been a much shorter and better video. Tasers are great. but we need to step up our training.

Officers failing to help out each other is a huge problem in use of force incidents in general. Either there are a bunch of popcorn eaters standing around and the little switch to engage hasn't been flipped. Or there's an officer that's too amped up or can't see that what he's doing is ineffective and the popcorn eaters have flipped the blue falcon switch, stand around and won't stop him.

Tasers are the same level as impact weapons for us so if I can hit someone with a baton I canTaser him. OC is just above verbal commands for us. I'm surprised more suspects aren't taken to jail with orange faces.

By far and away the most painful experience that typical police recruits have in training is OC exposure, for a lot of recruits that's one of the worst experiences in their lives. I'm not surprised that a lot of officers are adverse to using OC.

We used to have OC just above verbal commands and at the same level as soft empty hand, that's a good place for it. A lot of idiots got sprayed, but there were very few injuries to suspects or officers. And many fewer incidents of officers applying hard empty hand strikes. If the officer is going to use OC, he's in a better position to have a little distance to reduce incidental exposure and a little time to dance around, let the OC start to work and let the excess OC settle out of the air. We moved OC to same level as hard empty hand, and it rarely gets used, at the point officers can use OC the have used soft empty hand control, seamlessly escalated to hard empty hand and are just too close and engaged to use OC effectively and not get cross contaminated. Plus they are at the point where they can escalate to Taser or baton.

[Coyotesfan97]

I'll have to agree with you on how recruits are generally exposed to OC. The more the merrier seems to be the theme.

I have no problem with requiring them to do tasks after the exposure. The exposure itself can be a short blast leaving a strip across the nose and eyes. It's counterproductive to cover their whole face with it. I've seen OC dripping off faces when I've observed exposures at the academy. Sometimes the goal of the training is overlooked.

The other thing I don't like about first time exposures is the lack of a decent decon afterwards. I'm all for showing field expedients methods with a garden hose. But I'm also good with showing the wonders of straight original Dawn soap and paper towels.



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[Chuck Haggard]

Officers that are adverse to OC have undergone poor training and are carrying a poor mindset from the experience because of it.


Dawn is one of the worst decons one can use for OC, it adds to the effect on one's eyes. Baby shampoo is a far better choice in soaps, or using the Saber decon, it's the only commercial product on the market that actually works.

[John Hearne]

It seems that as the subject becomes more combative (and you need it to work more) the Taser becomes less effective. The chain of events required for a Taser to incapacitate is a lot longer than "pull trigger, subject drops." In my incident, my excessive grip on the Taser was enough to disconnect the battery immediately after deploying the probes. That's one thing I like about the X2 versus the X26 - the X2 seems more robust.

Where the Taser falls in relation to other tools seems to be under revision with the Taser being constantly bumped up. Based on court decisions, for us, the Taser getting really close to the baton and is probably greater than hard hands techniques at this point.

We just had an unfavorable decision regarding the use of the Taser on a mildly fleeing/non-cooperative misdemeanor subject. I suspect that if the person had been sprayed instead of tased, it would have gone in the agency's favor. Of course, it would have been worse for the suspect but that is a nuance the courts seem incapable of grasping.

[Coyotesfan97]

I've never used baby shampoo but I've always heard good things about it. I need to look at the Sabre decon. All the other ones I've tried were ineffective.