Let's talk about the AUG.

[Failure2Stop]

So, what is your opinion of trying to shorten a long hand guard gun to the size of a sub machine gun for use in roles where the sub machine gun is likely the best choice.....you know, like indoor room combat.

A 10ish inch long handguard is not uncommon these days with 10.3-11.5 barrels, which beats the M4 by 3 inches.

For indoor stuff, I really like the Mk18 sized guns, mostly because with a decent suppressor the barrel is right around that of an M4, which works decently indoors.

[taadski]

I was issued an A1 as a patrol carbine at my agency back in the late 90s. I eventually transitioned to a AR pattern rifle but I still recall it pretty fondly. They're shooting MF'ers. It took me quite a while after the switch to an M4 to reach what I considered the same level of comfort and proficiency I'd developed with the Steyr. The trigger on my issue one was always a bit clunky (it was a select fire weapon with the semi-only conversion in it) but the overall ergonomic package made it super shootable. I ran an old clamp style Surefire mount on the barrel with a 1" ring and a 6P to good effect. Aside from a sling, that was the only mod I felt it needed.

Here's an interesting little tid-bit/question….

On both of the 2 Augs our agency owns, there was a repeatable phenomenon whereby if one cycles the bolt by hand from a closed position, it was possible to chamber a round with the bolt going (what appeared to be) fully back into battery (read, it would fire) but without the extractor gaining full purchase on the chambered round. Under said circumstances, one could then re-rack the bolt repeatedly and still leave the live round in the chamber. This only seems to occur if the bolt is hand cycled from a closed position. If the bolt is locked back, mag inserted, then bolt released, the extractor always seems to seat adequately on the cartridge's rim and then eject appropriately.

Has anyone had similar symptoms from the platform? A known problem? It's an issue we've never adequately resolved.

Good thread.

t

[Dagga Boy]

A 10ish inch long handguard is not uncommon these days with 10.3-11.5 barrels, which beats the M4 by 3 inches.

For indoor stuff, I really like the Mk18 sized guns, mostly because with a decent suppressor the barrel is right around that of an M4, which works decently indoors.

Back to two tax stamps, crappy ballistics, not legal in lots of places, need permission to travel, etc. if you are issued the thing, great and when I said the AR makes more sense for business, that is what I meant. For an old retired guy or an individual citizen looking for a defensive carbine for home and vehicle defense, I ll keep the Eurotrash.

Taadski, I think a bunch of the issues were the choice of Customs to go with the F/A guns instead if semi's and then try to change them. Stuff is very different inside. I would gather that unmolested Semi's would have had fewer issues. With that said, for an agency issue guns that got a lot of very hard use in the field, the AUG's worked great for Customs until the merge with INS who didn't want them. I knew Seth Nadel back before they even put the AUGs int service and he knew how to run the thugs . Often when the agency SME retires, so does a bunch of the knowledge and passion.

[GJM]

The righty/lefty thing is enormous for my wife and I, as it is quite common for us to share one long gun in the field when out recreating, or have just one long gun readily available at night, near the door, etc. There are many times where two long guns is just not practical.

I think the P7/AUG analogy is pretty fair. Tremendous designs introduced in the 80's, that never made it mainstream in a big way. The Glock, Beretta 92, and AR-15 did become the mainstream choices, and as a result they have both been very well supported and continued to evolve.

At one time, if you wanted a compact carbine your main choice was the AUG. Now, this is my space efficient carbine. It can be a pistol, or a "rifle" if I plop it on my NFA lower. Caliber that works for me, familiar manual of arms, ambi for right/left hand use, great trigger, etc.

[SeriousStudent]

I have a deployment package set up right now for a contract. This is the long gun load out. Can we guess the roles of each?

From top to bottom:

Vehicle stops

Designated Marksman

General housecleaning chores.

[Dagga Boy]

The righty/lefty thing is enormous for my wife and I, as it is quite common for us to share one long gun in the field when out recreating, or have just one long gun readily available at night, near the door, etc. There are many times where two long guns is just not practical.

I think the P7/AUG analogy is pretty fair. Tremendous designs introduced in the 80's, that never made it mainstream in a big way. The Glock, Beretta 92, and AR-15 did become the mainstream choices, and as a result they have both been very well supported and continued to evolve.

At one time, if you wanted a compact carbine your main choice was the AUG. Now, this is my space efficient carbine. It can be a pistol, or a "rifle" if I plop it on my NFA lower. Caliber that works for me, familiar manual of arms, ambi for right/left hand use, great trigger, etc.

Its a choice for sure, and if it works, awesome. Again, I am not trying to make converts here. I have zero interest in Steyr as a company, or care if anyone else sees the benefits. It fits my world about perfect, just like yours does for you.

Now as far as "mainstream", do you think that had more to do with the 1989 and 1994 bans, that included the US government confiscation of a warehouse full of black 16 inch circle dot guns that became restricted to individual and agency sales to get them out. Had the AR 15 been essentially banned in this country, it may not be so "mainstream". They have developed well over time and are still a solid choice for a simple issue carbine.

My take is quite simple. My A3 AUG will do everything a 16" barreled simple AR with a A1 stock, Red dot, sling, and light will do without giving up a thing in reliability, accuracy, etc (apples to apples). It does it with a package 10" shorter. It will also do everything a 8" AR with a light, sling and red dot, will do with more reliability, accuracy, long term service life, and no penalty in ballistics, flash and blast. I find the ergonomics to be in favor of the AUG (FOR ME), while others prefer the ergos of the AR, which tells me it is probalby a toss up with each having positives and negatives that will essentially cancel each other out..........so again, it becomes a Apple/PC choice.

[Failure2Stop]

Back to two tax stamps, crappy ballistics, not legal in lots of places, need permission to travel, etc. if you are issued the thing, great and when I said the AR makes more sense for business, that is what I meant. For an old retired guy or an individual citizen looking for a defensive carbine for home and vehicle defense, I ll keep the Eurotrash.

Taadski, I think a bunch of the issues were the choice of Customs to go with the F/A guns instead if semi's and then try to change them. Stuff is very different inside. I would gather that unmolested Semi's would have had fewer issues. With that said, for an agency issue guns that got a lot of very hard use in the field, the AUG's worked great for Customs until the merge with INS who didn't want them. I knew Seth Nadel back before they even put the AUGs int service and he knew how to run the thugs . Often when the agency SME retires, so does a bunch of the knowledge and passion.

Dude, I'm not saying that you shouldn't like your AUG, or that you're wrong, simply that I do not share your enthusiasm for the tool in general.

I think that that two stamp thing is irrelevant, as we're really discussing one stamp, since one is dedicated to the suppressor anyway. I'm with you on the SBR hassle deal, but bilateral/ambidextrous use is important to me.

I personally do not use ammo that needs 20" of velocity to be effective for anything other than practice ammo. I follow the same thought process for 7.62 and 9mm as far as "duty" and practice ammo is concerned. I prefer to keep 5.56 at 11.5 for the slight performance increase, and while I do not consider it to be the ultimate in terminal performance, I have put down plenty of determined adversarys with M855 when applied to the proper places, from contact distance to 700 meters. Better ammo does a good job of closing the performance gap.

Business/work aside, I shoot and manipulate AR based rifles better than any other configuration, with the exception of the charging handle/bolt catch interaction of the SCAR. This means more to me than a few hundred feet per second of velocity.

Still, if you like it, and it fills a need, great; I just see a lot more of them in safes than at classes or in competition by those that own both options. While I like to have a reason to own expensive items, it's cool to have things "just because", and I'd certainly own one if offered a screaming deal.

[Dagga Boy]

All good pal. Trust me, I know I am one of those guys who marches to a different drum. I have found that most folks don't appreciate the AUG until they use them for real in the realm where they work well. That is what hooked me. I was working some stuff where I needed a very high degree of separation and deniability between my cop job and my private sector job. My partner became an explosively instant left hand only shooter in life, and was a very dedicated AUG shooter, so it made sense for me to learn to run and carry one. Working discrete urban operations in SoCal made it a near ideal choice, and I got hooked. It was great in the helo as well. Once I could run a red dot, it sort of made it for me.

I shoot, teach and demo the AR more than anything for obvious reasons. It is not a platform I would ever walk away from. With that said, I have my "Black Betty" AUG in my bedroom as my home gun. That is where this thread started. In that role, it makes sense. It also makes sense because I also travel with it to various states.

I hope people will read these threads with a focus on making decisions on gear based on their world as opposed to what is perfect for other people's world. It is good to have options. While the AUG was a "weird" option for many years, the current A3's are really a great little carbine and worth a look. The biggest issue is there are very few folks who understand or having experience running them. I think "performance fixation and anxiety" are also an issue. I learned a bunch about the things when I ran one in the NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor class. I had already taken a bunch of instructor classes with an AR, and was sure I could go to the class and not have to work very hard to do well. I took the AUG to really challenge myself and to really get something out of the class as I thought I was putting myself at a big disadvantage as I knew how much support side stuff I would have to do and learn how to teach. I would have never discovered how amazingly fast the AUG is for clearing a bolt over base malfunction with the support hand only if I wasn't forced to do it. I was forced to figure out how to run it efficiently, and how to do all the injured stuff and left handed. Most will never make the effort to get out of the comfort zone to figure this stuff out.

The nice thing about this forum is that most folks here actually use this stuff to a high level in some arena and it makes tapping into experience easy as opposed to the typical internet/gun shop discussions on stuff people theorize about rather than know.

[DocGKR]

I generally strongly dislike bullpups--except the AUG; the A3 version with a 16" barrel works well enough that I would have no angst using one if that was what was available.

[JDM]

This thread is going exactly like I hoped it would.

I was moving around my house last night with a buddy's AUG and then did the same movements with my AR and my Benelli.

It was incredible how much better that AUG was with regard to moving through my house.

Combine the above with the ability to basically shoot from the "2" with a 16" rifle and I'm more than sold on it.

Thanks to all the contributors.