To Retire the Shotgun or Not?

[gtmtnbiker98]

The Chief and I have been discussing the possibility of retiring the shotgun in favor of focusing solely on patrol carbine and pistol. The 12 ga totally beats our female officers to shreds despite technique and liquidating an inventory item streamlines the inventory and frees up money for additional 5.56 and 9mm ammunition.

In talking around the water cooler, most of the officers are rather anemic to the topic where one seasoned supervisor stated that we are losing a tool. The taking away of the tool caused me to pause. So I'm asking my fellow LE firearms instructors for their input.

What are the other agencies doing? At this point, we are gearing towards the retirement of the shotgun, but I can easily reverse this trend if given enough evidence as to why it isn't a good idea.

Not to be disrespectful, but I ask that only LE and preferably LE firearms instructors respond. Thanks.

[nwhpfan]

Keep the shotgun because it's versatility. Primarily you can breach with it too. There is little other option for when you have to get into somewhere right now. And you can carry one in your trunk with enough rounds on a sidesaddle.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks. We are definitely keeping them in inventory, just considering removing them from the cars and annual qualifications. We already have blue guns for less than lethal munitions.

[HCM]

We still run 14" 870s primarily because we have many of them and they last / can be re- built forever. Two years ago i received some rebuilds based on 1960's vintage wingmasters. That said they are more of a specialized tool. "Gun people" who understand the cycle of operation tend to do better with them IME. The most common issues I see with the 870 is operator error.

Indoors and emergency breaching are our niches for the shotgun. We have been trying to move to 5.56 carbines as our default long gun for some time. We are running Federal Flite control 00 and Winchester foster type slugs.

I've found "non gun" people whose primary exposure to firearms is semi auto pistols vis a LE Academy understand and have greater confidence in the carbine vs the shotgun.

Are you running pump guns or semi autos ?

What ammunition is authorized for the shotgun?

Do you have / will you keep shotguns for Less Lethal ?

Do you currently have enough 5.56 carbines for everyone ? Pool equipment is never optimal but pool shotguns work better than pool rifles.

Are personally owned / agency approved long guns allowed ?

[czech6]

How old are your shotguns and what are they?

[BLR]

Thanks. We are definitely keeping them in inventory, just considering removing them from the cars and annual qualifications. We already have blue guns for less than lethal munitions.

*Not a copper*

I'd not into a LOT of houses here in Wilmington with a carbine in favor of a 11-87.

That's just me though.

[David Armstrong]

Former LE firearms instructor, and I love the shotgun. Unfortunately, very few people are willing to take the time and effort to learn to use the weapon up to its true potential, which has been the problem with it. Given the realities of life I think you can get more officers trained up to par at a lower cost and with less time than if they were using a shotgun, and saving resources does matter. So I think I'd toss it out as a mandatory item, but would argue strongly for leaving it as an optional item for those who wanted it. Given the typical urban environment I think the shotgun is head and shoulders above the carbine for performance, but the operator has to be able to get that level of performance out of it.

[41magfan]

The SG for the run of the mill guy/gal in uniform isn't much more effective than a rabbit's foot and they would be MUCH better served with a rifle; perhaps even a pistol caliber carbine. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from in that category of weapons, but I remain convinced that's the niche that needs to be filled as it relates to long-guns for LE.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The SG for the run of the mill guy/gal in uniform isn't much more effective than a rabbit's foot and they would be MUCH better served with a rifle; perhaps even a pistol caliber carbine. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from in that category of weapons, but I remain convinced that's the niche that needs to be filled as it relates to long-guns for LE.

That is a perfect summary of our stance. To answer the questions perviously asked, our current shotguns are Mossberg 590A1's and we have a single semi auto Winchester. These shotguns have been in service for an approximate 10-years. The only time they come out of the cars is for annual shotgun qualification or when the car is being serviced.

As for the rifles, yes, we have Aimpoint equipped M4 clones in each vehicle with single point slings attached. The service load is Federal and our training is M193 55gr ball. We have over 40,000 rounds of M193 on hand for training and we are seeking to up the officer's proficiency with both the carbine and pistol. The shotgun is the oddball in the mix and we already have blue guns set aside for our less than lethal munitions.

A final decision won't be made until the end of December. Every officer is currently qualified with the shotgun, but we are considering things as we move forward.

[L-2]

I'm unfamiliar with Ohio, being in California. If Ohio is a "free" state, meaning the possession restrictions on the rifle are nil, I see the rifle taking the shotgun's place, given enough budget. I haven't done a cost comparison between shotgun and rifle, however. Great factors going for a patrol rifle are: ammo capacity; accuracy at distance; less recoil.

With that said, I love the shotgun for its manual-of-arms simplicity, which is trained & practiced, however. I believe the per unit purchase price can be much less, depending on configuration.

An agency must prepare for various scenarios and likely threats (gear-up for the mission at hand).


Background.
At my agency in California (not a "free" state), we can't buy our own patrol rifle; we can't take an issued rifle home for practice or even cleaning; we can't even transport it in our personal vehicles between offices. Hence, training & practice capability is extremely curtailed. Also, the rifle must stay in issued configuration, which is, currently, no optics, even though we have older 16" Colts with removable carry handles.

Each LEO is issued his/her rifle, depending on assignment. There aren't enough for everybody, so many aren't issued or even trained with the rifle. With the shotgun, we have less restrictions and can buy our own for personal use, but not for work. At least we can then practice with the shotgun, but can't buy a 14" version. There are more weapons-related problems where I work, but perhaps all agencies have their issues.

With that said, some of our employees do have personally-owned rifles in a patrol-ready configuration as some were owned prior to the laws getting so restrictive. Because of all these factors, the rifle can be a great tool, but where I work, it is not.

I forgot to add we're qualified and carry both 00 buck and slugs. Our cars are outfitted with two racks to be able to carry both a shotgun and a rifle. Each car will have a shotgun, but as I said, not everyone will have a rifle. Currently, for the rifle, qualification, and additional training is optional.