old 640 or new 640

[Moonshot]

Thanks for the insight, LSP. You have given me a lot to think about.

A little back ground... I hate pocket carry. I use this method only when I have no other viable option. Even if my M-642 is primary, I will tend to carry it on my ankle. Only if I am wearing shorts does this change, and if I am wearing shorts, I can usually get away with an untucked shirt, allowing me to carry my G26 IWB. There are, however, times when this is not practical, and the M-642 has to go into a Desantis holster and into my front shorts pocket.

I am looking for a good kydex IWB or AIWB for my M-642, (must also be tuckable), which might allow me to forgo pocket carry in shorts, but I haven't found one I like. I've read about Dark Star gear, and I may get one and give it a go. This is also how I would carry a 640 (old or new) should I end up carrying a pair of J's.

My carry M-642 is fitted with the Pachmyer Compac Professional. My range M-642 is also fitted with the Pachmyer Compac Professional. This setup lets me practice with an identical gun to my carry gun, but keeps the wear and tear off my carry gun. If I have non-shooting friends at the range with me who want to try something, I have an old M-60 I load with WCs and which is fitted with Hogue Monogrips. A larger gun would make a better teaching gun, but my wife cannot properly hold and manipulate any revolver larger than a J-frame, so that limits my options. She tends to practice with the Hogue fitted M-60, and that is also the gun she has available at home. I want her to have a DAO with concealed hammer, so the 640 would become hers.

As for the Airlite Ti/Scan versions, I have no doubt the reduced weight would make pocket carry more comfortable, but the reasons I don't like pocket carry are more for the lack of security (certain daily activities can allow the gun to move up and expose the grip) and I don't like the draw (they may draw smooth, but I've never been able to get a truly solid grip on any gun in my pocket). Pocket carry also sucks if you are sitting (car, restaurant, etc).

If I had lots of money, I would probably add an uberlite to my inventory, but for now it's not a high priority.

[LSP972]

Your points on why you don't like pocket carry are valid. Smaller, properly-contoured stocks like Ahrends or Spegel "boot grips" would alleviate much of the issues you have with it… and of course would make controlling the gun in accurate distance fire more difficult. No free lunch.

However, there is one potentially fatal flaw in your thinking… no on-body carry method that I can think of is slower and more difficult to accomplish a quick, effective presentation from than ankle carry. If you are toting your primary/only piece on your ankle… well, I hope you see the boogey man coming in time to get your iron out.

And if you're going to the trouble of concealed belt carry- IWB, AWIB, whatever- why not go with a serious piece with a few more beans?

Not criticizing you… just throwing some thoughts out there.

.

[ragnar_d]

I want one really bad.

JR1572

Yeah, I just got a bad case of the wants . . . hell, I'd gladly settle for a set of those sights on my 638.

[Edmo]

I own a 640 Pro Series and would pick the newer 357 gun.

Edmo

[Moonshot]

I'm still waiting on being able to make this deal happen. I have no interest in shooting magnums from a J-frame (did that with an SP101 and it wasn't fun), so the smaller and lighter 640 is preferred. If this deal ends up falling apart, the magnum 640 (either -1 or Pro, whichever one I find first without that goofy lock) will be what I pick up.

[Moonshot]

A quick revisit to my earlier thread. After a brief delay (actually not so brief), I am getting ready to pick up that old 640 (requires a little travel). I finally heard back from S&W and was told the serial number indicates it's not a +p rated 640. Standard pressure only. I realize it doesn't matter much, but it does take away some of the allure. One of the reasons I want a steel j-frame is for using +p ammo (not all the time, but often enough). Does it make a difference?

[LSP972]

The pre-95 Js are generally not "rated" for +P. You can, however, shoot a limited number of them without concern… provided they are genuine factory (IOW, something loaded by the Big Three- Winchester, Remington, or Federal/CCI/Speer) and not some of the boutique "toe-tagger specials" that so many rave about. Those are generally loaded beyond SAAMI standards; and you are definitely risking damage to a pre-95 J frame with them.

I have an M-37 made in 1966 that I carried as a BUG- and qualified with annually- for many years. I carried the FBI load in it. This is a 158gr lead SWC hollow point loaded to industry +P levels. I shot perhaps 25 of these per year in it, and it is still tight, no endshake or other signs of too much pressure.

You'll find all sorts of opinions on this. The bottom line is, unless you are one of those masochistic fellows who enjoy punishing recoil, anything hotter than a standard pressure .38 Special, in ANY J frame, is less than pleasant. If you plan to shoot a lot of +Ps, then better get a revolver rated for that. A few here and there, OTOH, won't hurt a non-rated S&W J.

IMO, of course…

.

[Moonshot]

I don't tend to shoot a lot of +p ammo through any of my J-frames - even those rated for +p. It's too expensive, and it's not much fun. I never shot a lot of +p through my SP101, and that was fun.

I don't anticipate shooting much more than WCs through the 640, but I did want to shoot a qualifier each year - strong hand and mirror image. That's two qualifiers with carry ammo. Carry ammo may be WCs, or it may be SBGDs. That's likely a few hundred rounds per year of +p. Not a lot by any means, but it might be too much for several years of use in a frame not rated for it.

I still want to pick up the 640. I'm not buying it for +p use. It just would have been nice if I didn't have to worry about it.

[LSP972]

A couple of hundred a year might be pushing your luck.

This conversation reminds me of something I have been meaning to explore, but simply never can remember to do it at the same time I have the TIME to do it... if that makes any sense.

Back (WAY back) in the day, Winchester made a cartridge called the .38 Special Super Police. It featured a 200 grain, rather blunt RNL bullet, moving at 800 or so fps. It was reportedly much more effective than the standard 158gr RNL, yet was safe to use in the aluminum frame revolvers of the day. I have wanted to explore this concept, using cast bullets and different powders on expansion/penetration tests.

One thing that has stopped me is this... if this load was so great, how come it was basically abandoned? Of course, all of this is far beyond the scope of this thread, so I won't clutter it up any further. To be totally honest, its probably just another, perhaps weak, way to "justify" my desire to keep using my older pre-95 Js... because the new iterations, with their two-piece barrels, MIM parts, and slightly larger frames, pretty much leave me cold.

That said, my EDC secondary is one of those things (M-360PD), because the titanium cylinder examples are so much lighter than a standard AirWeight.

But my "shootin' iron" Js are old, steel frame guns; a first-edition M-640, and a 70's vintage M-60.

If you're into that sort of thing, if that 640 is in godd shape, you can probably flip it for a profit to some old throwback like me...

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've had opportunity to crono some of the "Super Police" stuff, that used to be an issued duty load at my old job. The samples I had access to were running in the low 600fps range from a 4" gun, I would imagine even less from a snub. IMHO it was neither super, nor a good police duty load.

Stories of that round glancing off of windshields and car bodies are legion.

One of my old Chiefs had occasion to shoot a bad guy that was trying to kill him with a WWII bring-back P38, he shot said bad guy twice in the face, once in the forehead and once in the left cheek just under the zygomatic arch, neither bullet penetrated, nor did they slow dude down one little bit. Luckily one of the six rounds Chief fired hit dude in the left arm, that bullet glanced off of the humerus (did not break it) and cut the brachial artery on the way out. This eventually led dude to pass out before he could finish trying to kill our guy, and a damn good thing too since Chief was hiding behind a parked car trying to reload when dude flanked him to try and get some more rounds off at him.

Anyway, back to your original programming.