DocGKR - Your .380 vs 38 SPL article

[DocGKR]

BBMW--most of our .380 and .38 sp testing has been done for LE agencies, so you will not find the data on the internet. The FBI has also done extensive testing and has come to the same conclusion--that no .380 loads meet the minimum penetration, expansion, and barrier requirements. This paper is available open source: Roberts GK: “Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended 
for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue 
Simulant”. Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):35-38, Spring 2000. The new HST .380 Auto load is probably the best of the worst, so to speak.

[Symmetry]

The new HST .380 Auto load is probably the best of the worst, so to speak.

When is that going to be available?

[ack495]

Hello all. LEO for the last 10 years. New to the site. Long time lurker. I just picked a glock 42 yesterday for BUG/off duty use. Have been checking out lots of data trying to pick a round for it. Didn't know federal was coming out with a HST loading in .380. Look forward to seeing that.

Settled on the Lehigh XP round which looks real good in this test I saw:
Ammo Quest .380 ACP: Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator …: http://youtu.be/LczfeWK9lHw. Testing seems legit.

No .380 other than some that use the XTP bullet seem to expand in denim and still meet the 12" of penetration. These Lehigh's seem to offer a good comprise of ideal penetration with good cutting ability without expanding. Can't fail because they're not a hollowpoint that may get clogged. Kind of like a new age wadcutter. Hopefully they feed well in my glock.

[BBMW]

A little late getting back to my own thread, but.

Doc,

Thanks. That will be helpful.

BBMW--most of our .380 and .38 sp testing has been done for LE agencies, so you will not find the data on the internet. The FBI has also done extensive testing and has come to the same conclusion--that no .380 loads meet the minimum penetration, expansion, and barrier requirements. This paper is available open source: Roberts GK: “Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended 
for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue 
Simulant”. Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):35-38, Spring 2000. The new HST .380 Auto load is probably the best of the worst, so to speak.

[BBMW]

It's three years later. I had a reason to look this thread back up. I'm going to bump it for any updates.

Has Doc Roberts, or anyone else, seen any reason to change the thinking i the original article Doc posted that started this, or is the situation still the same. Has ammo development done anything to boost .380 into anything resembling a effective defensive round?

[Tokarev]

It's three years later. I had a reason to look this thread back up. I'm going to bump it for any updates.

Has Doc Roberts, or anyone else, seen any reason to change the thinking i the original article Doc posted that started this, or is the situation still the same. Has ammo development done anything to boost .380 into anything resembling a effective defensive round?

Probably not. It looks like you still get either adequate penetrayion and no expansion or decent exoansion and shallow penetration.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.c...allistics-gel/

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.c...allistics-gel/


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[Det1397]

Probably not. It looks like you still get either adequate penetrayion and no expansion or decent exoansion and shallow penetration.

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See: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ed-the-380-but , in particular post #22 from Doc....

[Tokarev]

There are some good reasons to carry a 380. Tiny size being the main one.

Personally I'd probably chose a small 9mm like the SIG 938 or Kimber.

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[JodyH]

.380 vs .38spcl snubbie don't compete against each other "round for round" because the .38+P is the better bullet, no debate on that at all. Rounds like the Gold Dot penetrate and usually expand better than any .380.

.380 and .38spcl snubbie are competitors when you compare them as a complete package.
What the .380 brings to the table is 7 rounds versus 5 in the same or smaller size envelope (my CW380 is significantly smaller than a S&W442).
The current generation of micro .380's have better sights, better triggers, good reliability, are easier to shoot faster and more accurately and way faster to reload for most people who's primary gun is a semi-auto.
With rounds like the Lehigh Penetrator the .380 has plenty of penetration (which is all the majority of .38's give you since most fail to expand anyway).

A 7 round pocket .380 and a .38 snub are both "mano a mano" guns, but the extra two initial rounds and the reload speed of the .380 gives you a better chance if it goes "mano y dos manos".

That said, my CW380 is my Sunday morning drinking coffee at the house pocket pistol and my PM9 is my outside the house pocket pistol.
Because 7x 9mm > 7x .380 or 5x .38spcl.

[LSP552]

.380 vs .38spcl snubbie don't compete against each other "round for round" because the .38+P is the better bullet, no debate on that at all. Rounds like the Gold Dot penetrate and usually expand better than any .380.

.380 and .38spcl snubbie are competitors when you compare them as a complete package.
What the .380 brings to the table is 7 rounds versus 5 in the same or smaller size envelope (my CW380 is significantly smaller than a S&W442).
The current generation of micro .380's have better sights, better triggers, good reliability, are easier to shoot faster and more accurately and way faster to reload for most people who's primary gun is a semi-auto.
With rounds like the Lehigh Penetrator the .380 has plenty of penetration (which is all the majority of .38's give you since most fail to expand anyway).

A 7 round pocket .380 and a .38 snub are both "mano a mano" guns, but the extra two initial rounds and the reload speed of the .380 gives you a better chance if it goes "mano y dos manos".

That said, my CW380 is my Sunday morning drinking coffee at the house pocket pistol and my PM9 is my outside the house pocket pistol.
Because 7x 9mm > 7x .380 or 5x .38spcl.

^ This. I’m completely happy carrying a G42 in just about any circumstance I’d carry a 642. It really is a total package thing. The 2 extra rounds and much greater shootability, in my hands, outweighs the slight power increase of the .38 spl., IMO.