Big Army and the MHS??

[Chuck Haggard]

Agreed, especially about the A10, but then the "fighter mafia" has been entrenched in the Air Force since well before the time of Col. Boyd, and to the nation's detriment.


Too many people in the .mil small arms game who are there for a career and busy work, not what's best for the troops.

[Drang]

To me it is incredible that the Pentagon is cutting the A-10 but still thinks it has money to spend on new pistols of all things.

The Air Force has always hated the A10. It's for a mission the Air Force doesn't like, and it's too robust an airframe, so there's no money for maintenance, which means no retirement jobs for generals.
/derail
Concur that this may get nowhere, or it may take so long to complete testing that it winds up being like the contracts to replace the Springfield with the Garand, the decision had been made years before but troops at Schofield Barracks were shooting at Zeros and Vals with '03s.

...“the XM17 will provide Warfighters with greater accuracy, target acquisition, ergonomic design.”

With Target Acquisition, I wonder if they're expecting the ability to mount RDS? Or just a Pic Rail for a laser?

“The new handgun will also be more reliable, durable and easier to maintain.”

Glock can win there, but I wonder if they'll won the "ergonomic design" competition?

This is a case where reading comments has a minimum of Derp: someone actually seems to have read the hundreds of pages in the proposal and reports that there is a requirement for an external safety. Does Glock qualify? Another reports that Glock engineers says they can modify a Glock 18 selector to provide a 1911-style safety.

Myself, I think the S&W M&P would be a more ergonomically friendly design, a unit armorer can swap out grip modules. But I'm just a retired NCO who never got comfortable with the Beretta...

[HCM]

The Air Force has always hated the A10. It's for a mission the Air Force doesn't like, and it's too robust an airframe, so there's no money for maintenance, which means no retirement jobs for generals.
/derail
Concur that this may get nowhere, or it may take so long to complete testing that it winds up being like the contracts to replace the Springfield with the Garand, the decision had been made years before but troops at Schofield Barracks were shooting at Zeros and Vals with '03s.

With Target Acquisition, I wonder if they're expecting the ability to mount RDS? Or just a Pic Rail for a laser?

Glock can win there, but I wonder if they'll won the "ergonomic design" competition?

This is a case where reading comments has a minimum of Derp: someone actually seems to have read the hundreds of pages in the proposal and reports that there is a requirement for an external safety. Does Glock qualify? Another reports that Glock engineers says they can modify a Glock 18 selector to provide a 1911-style safety.

Myself, I think the S&W M&P would be a more ergonomically friendly design, a unit armorer can swap out grip modules. But I'm just a retired NCO who never got comfortable with the Beretta...

Glock has produce pistols before with manual safeties for military and police contracts. I believe that was one of the original requirements for the British Army handgun trials, though they eventually went with the standard Gen 4 G17.

I agree the Smith & Wesson M and P is a good design but the execution / production has been inconsistent. Larry Vickers said it best "the MNP could've been a great handgun at Smith and Wesson was willing to spend 50 or $60 more per unit in production."

I really think the SIG P320 has a good chance - it seems to be the best fit for what is described in the RFP

[Dave J]

To me it is incredible that the Pentagon is cutting the A-10 but still thinks it has money to spend on new pistols of all things. And the idea that we need a more "accurate" pistol than the M9 is simply nuts. The current M9 might be too big and heavy for my taste, but it is an inherently accurate pistol. Updating it (at less cost!) makes sense but we have hundreds of billions of spending priorities that should be met before we spend dime one on an entirely new pistol.

One thing that's helping to push this along is the cost to refurb a Beretta is higher than what they expect to buy the new pistol for. IF the numbers I heard mentioned were correct, and not fudged to help justify the project, then buying new pistols actually makes financial sense.

Unfortunately, there is a faction really pushing the caliber change. I got the impression that they wanted to be able say "x.xx% more stopping power" or whatever the politically correct term for lethality is these days.

Rumor has it the accuracy requirement was at least partially derived from a desire to make damn sure that some POS Hi Point or Taurus wouldn't get selected.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I read from Janes:

The US Army has taken another step towards buying a new XM17 Modular Handgun System (MHS), and announced on 17 June that a draft solicitation was released to industry.

Programme specifications have continued to evolve - the army is hosting its fourth industry day on 7-8 July to evolve them further - as feedback from arms makers have factored into the requirements and the Pentagon decided to allow the use of 'special purpose ammunition'.

Colonel Scott Armstrong, the army's project manager for soldier weapons, said in the announcement that he expects a final solicitation in 2016 followed by a competitive down-select process running through 2017.

Does that mean a move from FMJ?

[Dave J]

I read from Janes:



Does that mean a move from FMJ?

Has to have both FMJ and JHP available. 9, 40, and 45 meet that requirement.

I wouldn't take that as a shift away from FMJ for general purpose forces (unfortunately).

[PPGMD]

Agreed, especially about the A10, but then the "fighter mafia" has been entrenched in the Air Force since well before the time of Col. Boyd, and to the nation's detriment.


Too many people in the .mil small arms game who are there for a career and busy work, not what's best for the troops.

The Fighter Mafia were disciples of Boyd, and were responsible for the A-10.

[Redhat]

The Air Force has always hated the A10. It's for a mission the Air Force doesn't like, and it's too robust an airframe, so there's no money for maintenance, which means no retirement jobs for generals.
/derail
Concur that this may get nowhere, or it may take so long to complete testing that it winds up being like the contracts to replace the Springfield with the Garand, the decision had been made years before but troops at Schofield Barracks were shooting at Zeros and Vals with '03s.

With Target Acquisition, I wonder if they're expecting the ability to mount RDS? Or just a Pic Rail for a laser?

Glock can win there, but I wonder if they'll won the "ergonomic design" competition?

This is a case where reading comments has a minimum of Derp: someone actually seems to have read the hundreds of pages in the proposal and reports that there is a requirement for an external safety. Does Glock qualify? Another reports that Glock engineers says they can modify a Glock 18 selector to provide a 1911-style safety.

Myself, I think the S&W M&P would be a more ergonomically friendly design, a unit armorer can swap out grip modules. But I'm just a retired NCO who never got comfortable with the Beretta...

How much does the Army care about the Air Force's mission(s)... other than CAS? I like the A-10 by the way.

[Dave J]

How much does the Army care about the Air Force's mission(s)... other than CAS? I like the A-10 by the way.

I can only speak for myself , not the whole Army, but I care quite a bit. Besides CAS, I've used the heck out of air mobility and ISR, and really appreciate us having air superiority/supremacy pretty much anywhere we go. I'm also fully supportive of bad guys getting blown up via precision strike and AI before they get a chance to play in the close fight. And having GPS and reliable SATCOM is a good thing too. The cyber stuff...well that's all voodoo magic that I don't understand anyway

However, trying to sell the F-35 as a substitute for the A-10 is more than a little disengenuous IMHO.

Anyway, we should probably steer this thread back to the MHS.

[JHC]

They could adopt a 9mm FMJ flat point and call it more lethal. Might be hokey but would be smarter than .40