Will competition get LEO's or Armed Civilians killed?

[JV_]

When I switched from IPSC to IDPA, I was so used to standing in the open and focusing on the shooting, I rang up penalties faster than Mike Tyson in a hockey game in IDPA. It really took a while to break that habit.

I would caution you when trying to equate an IDPA penalty with tactical (in)correctness.

I wouldn't assume that just because you did it in USPSA that you'd do it in a real-life gunfight.

[shane45]

Just to make sure Im forming my questions/statements clearly, Im not saying you definitely would, but just like in the case of officers killed while picking up brass in a gunfight because they did in training, I would say that implies you could. Conversely, is this risk outweighed by how much better you are likely to shoot in a real life situation?

[YVK]

My observation is that overlap between competitive and concealed carry world is pretty small. I shot my last USPSA match yesterday. There were 42 match participants. Not a single person carried a gun before match started. Unless they used smart carry or ankle holsters, which I highly doubt.
At the end of tear down people take off their war belts, lock them up, shake hands, and drive away.

That, and 2.5 lbs triggers shooting ammo barely over PF level makes me wonder. Other than that, watching local GMs leave me in the dust is a thing of beauty and is quite stimulating.

[olstyn]

My observation is that overlap between competitive and concealed carry world is pretty small. I shot my last USPSA match yesterday. There were 42 match participants. Not a single person carried a gun before match started. Unless they used smart carry or ankle holsters, which I highly doubt.
At the end of tear down people take off their war belts, lock them up, shake hands, and drive away.

That, and 2.5 lbs triggers shooting ammo barely over PF level makes me wonder. Other than that, watching local GMs leave me in the dust is a thing of beauty and is quite stimulating.

That's been my observation as well. It's possible that people could be loading up in their cars, but I'm the only one I've ever seen who makes use of the berm for this purpose post-teardown/brass pickup. Seems to me that I might as well load up in a safe direction given the option, and it's convenient to do so, given that I'm shooting my carry gun from my carry holster in the match anyway. It's really just one last "load and make ready."

[cclaxton]

That's been my observation as well. It's possible that people could be loading up in their cars, but I'm the only one I've ever seen who makes use of the berm for this purpose post-teardown/brass pickup. Seems to me that I might as well load up in a safe direction given the option, and it's convenient to do so, given that I'm shooting my carry gun from my carry holster in the match anyway. It's really just one last "load and make ready."

One of the great things about a KSTG match is you can arrive hot and leave hot, and most do. Once your squad is ready to shoot the SO/RO will take you downrange and ask you to unload and show clear. On the first stage you will load up and shoot your first stage, topping off for the next stage. Then, at the end after you unload and show clear for the final stage, you can ask to load up to leave. They take you downrange and people make ready to leave. If IDPA and USPSA allowed it, I am sure most would do the same, depending on the state.
Cody

[YVK]

If IDPA and USPSA allowed it
Cody

I don't give a damn if they allow it or not. I say I'll be back, go over to my car, stick in my carry gun, which is nearly identical to my production gun, in AIWB, and go help with tear down.

[Chris Rhines]

I don't give a damn if they allow it or not. I say I'll be back, go over to my car, stick in my carry gun, which is nearly identical to my production gun, in AIWB, and go help with tear down.

It's worth mentioning that doing so at a USPSA match would cause you to be disqualified under Rule 10.5.13. You're not permitted to handle your gun except when under the direct supervision of a range officer.

According to Rule 2.5, a match in an area with legal CCW should provide a loading/unloading station separate from the match area, where CCW-type folks can take care of business. I have never actually seen such a thing, but it's a good idea.

[YVK]

Yep, Chris, I know. I look at it in a few ways. First, I handle my gun inside my car, which is a private property outside of USPSA rules.
Second, there are no areas covered by 2.5 at my range.
Third, I can be just an asshole who drives away after completing my last stage. I choose to help with tear down, as long as I carry concealed doing it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I opine that the benefits of competition come from stress inoculation and moving to unconscious competence in gun handling. As far as tactics - either game is not that relevant. Who, for example, enters a building with 10 shooters if you are a civilian (except in some bizarre circumstances). Most IDPA scenarios can be dealt with by fleeing in terror! I do like sitting at a table with 6 targets in front of you when the committee decides to attack you (this is for academics - ). Or as some jocularly put it - your last meeting with HR.

However, the emergency literature is pretty clear that stress reduction does come from being in stressful situations and practice that gives you quick and automatic perceptual and action paradigms to prevent the freeze up. Does that lead to automaticity of bad shoots? We don't know that. It might be that the under practiced go more to automatic shoot as they don't have higher level evaluative process with quick evaluation responses. That's why quality FOF is a needed adjunct just to shooting skills. There are studies out there that FOF or simulation training leads to better decision making.

BTW - I shoot with a Glock 19 or 26 most of the time - which are my carry guns. I do throw in a 1911 or M19, snubby or even a 32 HR mag once in a while for grins.

Another factor is that the 'mistakes' in USPSA or IDPA from a 'tactical' point of view aren't really that relevant to the civilian modal gun fight - mugger be gone, dude in the hallway. What 'mistakes' do we seen in civilian gun fights (totally anecdotal):

1. Not shooting the guy - Tacoma Mall
2. Leaving cover - Tyler
3. Challenging the person overtly - WalMart dude
4. Leaving the truck to see the street sign (George!)
5. Hosing the music van
6. Hosing the popgun guy
7. Doing the Biden on some poor drunk at the door

At least, the games and FOF give you a bit of practice on inhibiting the bad shoot and discerning a threat.

There is a slight movement to have small carry gun matches around here to avoid the space gun, tricked out - non carry guns.

The folks I know who 'carry' and talk 'guns' and won't compete basically don't want to fail in front of manly men! Failing is a good thing as a learning experience. For example, I totally blew a dark building stage as I found my developing cataracts totally disabled my finer vision at night. I actually couldn't see a gun on a dark t-shirt target. Who knew? They are fixed now - old age - sigh.

[KevinB]

I shoot competition - but I do it for the fun - and to see how bad I am...

Issues I have with most competitions reflecting life is that target discrimination is virtually non existent.
Lack of moving targets (for the most part) - targets never change threat (no compliance aspect).

I view this simply as shooting mechanics - it needs to be augmented with a lot of other aspects.

Everyone should shoot comps -- but I don't think its all folks (especially LEO and CCW) should do.
I shoot it with tactical movement anyway - and accept that on some stages I will not competitive - which I am okay with.