Will competition get LEO's or Armed Civilians killed?

[_JD_]

Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't there a judging component in the early days of IDPA where some of the scoring was based on how well you approached the stage?

Like if you rolled up in a Cadillac or what?

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[Tom Givens]

No. You are thinking of the NTI, most likely. That was mostly subjective scoring.

[rob_s]

Am I remembering it wrong? Wasn't there a judging component in the early days of IDPA where some of the scoring was based on how well you approached the stage?

Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.

[Odin Bravo One]

Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.

Because something is not written down on the internet does not mean it didn't happen. I can provide countless incidents where "training scars" resulted in undesireable results, which are plenty documented. When those documents get reviewed in 25 years, perhaps they will be made available.

And the only way people will become their own SME is by viewing it from all sides........

[GJM]

It seems to me that the downside of training scars needs to be balanced against the downside of not training.

[Dagga Boy]

I'll simply pile on with Sean M......rob, how many actual shooting incidents have you been in, investigated, correlated with training versus performance, etc.? Much of what I teach is based on actual correlation with field results.
Additionally, if you think that because you don't perform well at matches is the reason for excuses, I really have no words. I am pretty much great with competition as good if you are not planning on "winning". One of the advocates of competition in this thread is known for lots of penalties in IDPA for doing things right. I've done the same thing. I just shot a match a couple weeks ago. The trigger finger discipline was horrendous. I never saw a single person cautioned..........which is because what I consider an issue for running a gun around people is different than at a match where it is "slower" to wait to get on the trigger and a proper index is not used (on a side note....the R/O of our group actually called my partner to comment on my gun handling skills and level of how I operated my handgun...even though I didn't "win"). Again, probably won't get you killed but others may have some issues.
I know this will get written off because these are all just excuses because I can't shoot......which is peachy, because I kind of like the idea of folks figuring that I am a duffer based on some play shooting rating.

[Dagga Boy]

It seems to me that the downside of training scars needs to be balanced against the downside of not training.

I don't think there is any controversy on this........you need to be training-period. The issue is what that "training" is, what you are training for and what you are making sub-conscious habits and skills.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm shooting just very slightly under master class in IDPA even though I was running a stock G19 with a NY1 trigger from IWB under a T-shirt. Not the world's greatest IDPA guy, but with limited practice time, near 50 year old eyes and arthritis it ain't bad IMHO.

I'd do better in matches if I was willing to do stupid stuff like spring down make-believe hallways and such to get better time, but I am not willing.

[orionz06]

And the only way people will become their own SME is by viewing it from all sides........

Correct. When I started saying this, and I may have been the first, it was because I felt that people were smart enough to arrive at reasonable solutions on their own without having their hand held by some "SME" who only has their own financial interest at heart.

Arriving at a reasonable solution requires considering of all things, not plugging ones ears and screaming LA LA LA when someone suggests something you don't like.

[shane45]

Rob_s, you really seem to be driving at a myopically viewed position on every comment I make. The POINT of the question was if IDPA, way back at its inception, had a different focus and was morphed over time more to the "game" side of the fence(not saying this is the case, just asking the question). But Im not willing to break out the encyclopedia Britannica collection for every comment I make or question I ask in this friendly conversation to keep you from getting all issued up. Based on your comments I do not believe you think or have ever thought like me at all. You keep returning to some misguided assertion I am trying to find excuses for performance ENTIRELY MISSING that I am heading in the opposite direction. You continue to ignore that I started in competition. Again, I shot well in to B class in the late 90's in a very short time. Revisited competition around 2010 in IDPA for about a season and a half. Took 1st place in at least a couple matches. Shot a number of local 3 gun style competitions and a few rifle and pistol comps and placed 1st in many of them. I am NOT saying I am an accomplished shooter or even a really good shooter. The point is that I am not new to competition and have no need to make excuses for anything. The difficulties I had switching off IPSC autopilot habits when I went to IDPA is what made me aware of my concerns. This is what drove me in the direction of caring less about score and placement and more about being aware of what autopilot habits I ingrain.

Is every belief or opinion you have based on mis-remembered, made-up, boogeyman stories?

This is the point I was trying to make before. You are certainly entitled to ninja-out at whatever match you want to, but you, and others who behave like you, seem to always do so from a very misguided and unsubtantiate-able position because of the vast amount of BS that surrounds this issue, most of which I believe to have been started by people that simply didn't perform well at matches and in turn looked for excuses not to participate, or excuses as to why they didn't place well (I.e. Because:ninja). As I've said, I used to share your view, and your behavior. I just don't anymore.

This is why I press you, and anyone like you, to come up with documentable evidence of a shooting that ended badly because the good guy employed competition tactics or defaulted to "training scars". Not the Pretenders scenario (get it? Brass in Pocket?), because that wasn't a result of competition shooting and cannot be documented meaning it didn't happen.

The point, here, is that you're behavior is based on nothing. No documentable examples, no factual basis in reality, and perhaps at best the opinions of others in whom you place (perhaps misguided?) trust and belief. If those same people used the Pretenders story to help sway your opinion, and that story turned out to be wrong, then what else are they getting wrong?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think you're ready for the red pill yet. But maybe this discussion will be seen by people that haven't made up their minds yet, and who are willing to become their own SME though the t"trust, but verify" method.