I don't recall what my opinion was nor do I recall having an opinion on this topic. I'm sure it was well thought out and persuasive, though.Originally Posted by Clark Jackson
I haven't posted much in years. I hope everyone is doing well!
I don't recall what my opinion was nor do I recall having an opinion on this topic. I'm sure it was well thought out and persuasive, though.
I haven't posted much in years. I hope everyone is doing well!
I’d like to hear @SoCalDep ‘s opinion.
I assume you 'mentioned' me to get my input. My stats are not meant to be all encompassing, and are *expressly and repeatedly presented as a specific subset*. They are random crimes in which the defender is not a criminal doing criminal shit, are not domestic in nature, are not targeted for occupational reasons (gas station clerk, armored car guard), etc. Of course there are outliers. If you're at a concert in Las Vegas when some asshole starts shooting from a hotel window, that's an outlier. In the event I go to a movie theater, I actually do make sure I have a WML because of the tiny tiny fraction of an increased risk of an active shooter in a dark environment. I can see more of a use in hiking/outdoorsy pursuits with predator concerns as well. Niches exist.
I'm not sure what convenience over sapience means, but frankly if we're not concerned with comfort than concealable body armor would make a lot more losers into winners than WMLs will. I am not concerned with a 100% solution because it's unobtainable. I routinely disregard infinitesimal risk in many aspects of my life for the convenience, the fun, the cost, etc. I don't have to ignore what the numbers tell me to be honest with myself about that.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Walking around outside at night with bears around, you want a weapon light on everything. When there are noises around the tent at night, you go out with everything turned on, trying to turn night into day.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Because it's more 'stuff' that has to be vetted, trained with, made automatic in it's use and absolutely reliable in it's implementation.
It's always a balance. We've all seen the guy that is constantly adding the latest stuff without putting in the time to train with it and has surprising failures when it counts. We've all seen the guy that is 'I've always been doing it this way' and is missing out on really good new innovations, and if he does start adding stuff he's so far behind the curve he never catches up and just gives up on gaining capability.
You want to land somewhere in the middle, and have a good idea of how much time you actually have to add new stuff while staying solid with what has been working.
I carry a gun with a WML. I don't have to use it. I can use it if I want.
The idea people will shoot at the light... could be (and has been) a thing in certain circumstances, if we are to believe that WMLs are unnecessary for CCW because as a targeted victim of random crime a WML is unnecessary (as some stats claim), the suspect also can see the victim and therefore the presence of a light as a target indicator is laughable. The person already "targeted" is THE target indicator. I've seen a bunch of WMLs shot... In perfect lighting conditions, including one of my own (when not turned on) in a force-on-force situation. We tend to put guns and lights and hands in front of us when we engage in gunplay and all those things tend to get shot.
Stats can provide information and can be used to mislead or can be misinterpreted, and arguments citing those stats can be misinterpreted as well. (Some people get accused of making stats "arguments" when they are merely reporting information that's subject to interpretation.)
The light may not be necessary in my situation. My situation may never occur. I don't find the light to be a major issue, so I'd rather have it. My carry gun is my HD gun. I can illuminate without pointing a gun at a person because I actually know how to manipulate a WML and have trained with it. I've also trained a lot of people (thousands) and my training program has trained tens of thousands of people on the use of weapon-mounted lights and low light engagements. I've conducted studies and presented information in front of executives and civilian oversight from one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the country regarding WMLs, pressure switches, and low light. That's cool and all, but all that may not apply to "you".
Even trained individuals very frequently fail to manipulate a hand-held light correctly during an engagement. The body cam videos are plenty. We've myelinated a specific grip and more times than not the handheld flashlight that is supposedly so much more useful than a WML will be pointed at the ground as we try to achieve the thing (grip) we've made automatic.
Oh yea... I carry a hand-held light too. In fact, I carry two of them. One is in the ankle trauma kit that I'm also super-unlikely to need. I like options, and I find that the WML gives me options without a lot of effort. So do handhelds... So I carry both and really don't care what anyone else thinks about that. You shouldn't either. You should make your own choice based on your environment, lifestyle, needs, and threats.
Valid point, although the potential utility of the firearm in a time of need is orders of magnitude greater than an extra mag or light. As a civilian out and about it's difficult to imagine a situation where a WML would be advantageous. A WML on a carry gun without an accompanying hand-held would be a spectacularly bad idea. FWIW I've used ~500 lumen lights three times now to reinforce the notion of my personal space or to change the trajectory of an interaction with a fellow human. That capability goes right out the window if the only light you have is attached to a pistol.
I think that the calculus changes around the home, at least for my living situation. Ever mindful of the fact that a light is also a beacon that says "here i am," anybody in my dwelling without an invitation or slinking around on my property in hours of darkness is up to no good, and if decide that I need to illuminate them I'd prefer to be pointing a gun at them too. The standard disclaimers about proper trigger discipline obviously apply. The folks joking about NODs are actually on to the best possible solution in a lot of respects, but oh man, good luck explaining that one to a west coast jury in the event of a shooting.
It was an off-line discussion that I had with @Clusterfrack that prompted him to resurrect this thread. Thanks to everyone who weighed in. I was speculating on whether or not someone lit up with a modern LED handgun light could determine that it was attached to a handgun. The context of the discussion was life in a city where a small band of atypical provocateurs has succeeded in essentially eliminating routine aspects of police work, which definitely sends the wrong message to the thousands of of feral humans infesting our neighborhoods. Theft is endemic, as are weapons ranging from prison shanks to firearms. As such, the original question is moot, although we will be coming up with a plan to safely gather some empirical observations later this week.
This is a great example of use of light. While positively identifying a potential threat is a common theme in these discussions, it certainly isn't the only practical use.
Using light for situational awareness is IMO at the top of the practical-use list. If I'm traversing a dark area, the handheld is already in the support hand and with a grip that would be appropriate for use with a pistol. As JCL states above, not only is the light providing illumination for navigation and perhaps to PID a potential threat, but is also signaling the fact to others that my SA is fully engaged and I am actively assessing my surroundings. This of course is at the polar opposite on the awareness spectrum of those who have their face buried in a smart phone, making themselves a prime target.
Just like repetitions with the pistol, I get daily repetitions with my EDC light walking the dogs before sunrise and after sunset. I purposely carry and operate the light the same way as if I had to draw the pistol, and (in the privacy of my back yard) do several reps of extending my arms into a firing grip sans the pistol using the Harries technique.
Situational awareness supplemented with purposeful use of light is in itself a powerful deterrent to predators.
I think there are far too many hypothetical situations. What if’s and what not. You can dry fire a light same as a pistol. Not that complicated to train correct usage of spill without directly aiming.
Weigh out the factors involved in its function and if it may help you. If you verify that it would indeed help and not hinder. Then why not? How much shit shit do we carry for preparedness? How much do we train for something that may never happen?
Can you use the wml to aid in a shooting?
Does your environment warrant a wml?
Is it really that much worse to conceal?
Can you easily manipulate the switching?
Are you willing to train with it?
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I've always considered something like the 5 C's for survival to be a good guide: cutting, combustion, cover, containers, and cordage.
The combustion part that means fire starting capability I always took to mean illumination in civilization, as you were less likely to need the protection from hypothermia, but more likely to be in REAL darkness, both due to man made structures.
Also, in the wilderness, a fire can mean Communication, so your civilized alternative is a phone for that aspect.
Cutting means just that, and maybe a multitool makes more sense for some than a machete or hatchet.
Cover involves dressing appropriately for social and physical environment, including shoes you can reasonably walk in.
Containers is just having your stuff organized, carryable and accessible.
Cordage at first seems a little outdated, until you need it. Maybe not as critical as in the bush, as it's easier to scavenge inside the city walls, but still can be useful.
Sorry for the thread drift, but I thought it might be interesting for some.
"It was the fuck aroundest of times, it was the find outest of times."- 45dotACP
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