Utility of a WML for Concealed Carry

[Mark D]

So... there's been a rampant problem of private citizens shooting innocents in CCW shootings and now a WML or flashlight is necessary? Where's the data to support this? Like I said earlier, the alleged need for a WML or flashlight to PID during a CCW defensive shooting is theoretical babble.

Certainly Tom Given's dataset, or Tom Corria's footage tends to support your statement.

That said, a criminal opened fire on me from a position of darkness while I was fully illuminated in my doorway. Fortunately, he missed with the two or three shots he fired. I would have welcomed a WML on my handgun that night.

[joshs]

3. With most WML you don't need to point the weapon directly at a thing to illuminate/PID that thing. (Especially indoors). In fact, poining the WML at everything you're looking at is improper use of the WML.

5. Many of the current WML are small and light enough that they can be added to a CCW pistol without incurring a lot of extra bulk and weight. Modern kydex holsters help in this regard.

I don't think that these two quite coexist yet. The newest gen of high candela lights from Malkoff, Modlite, Cloud (and probably Surefire's new turbo) work really well for ceiling and floor bounce. I don't think we're quite there yet for the smaller single-cell pistol lights. A TLR7 could probably be modded to meet the criteria, but it would drain a 16340 very quickly. A dedicated 18350 version would work.

[joshs]

Beware the man with just one light -- a carry rotation of lights will get you killed for certain.

Eh, I carry a Back Up Handheld on my keychain, so technically I have two lights. This may unfortunately get me killed in the streets.

[GJM]

So, to recap...

1. A hand-held light is essential for most instances where extra illumination is needed.

2. For most robberies, there needs to be enough ambient light for the criminal to see and maneuver on the victim.

3. With most WML you don't need to point the weapon directly at a thing to illuminate/PID that thing. (Especially indoors). In fact, poining the WML at everything you're looking at is improper use of the WML.

4. When it comes to actually shooting in low light, most will shoot better using a two-handed grip and WML compared to using SHO and a WML in the non-dominant hand.

5. Many of the current WML are small and light enough that they can be added to a CCW pistol without incurring a lot of extra bulk and weight. Modern kydex holsters help in this regard.

Did I miss anything?





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Eh, I carry a Back Up Handheld on my keychain, so technically I have two lights. This may unfortunately get me killed in the streets.

Funny, I had just assumed you were a Tesla guy, and didn't have a key chain.

[TGS]

Beware the man with just one light -- a carry rotation of lights will get you killed for certain.

Someone get this man a drink.

[TC215]

I love it when guys who carry a gun, which statistics say they'll never need, balk at carrying additional equipment (extra mag, WML, handheld light) because statistics say they won't need it.

I posted a thread a couple months ago where a citizen was in a shooting, and ended up having to shoot at muzzle flashes because he lacked a WML or any other light.

People tend to react poorly when you pull your EDC to peer into a cowling on an engine preflight.

I'm giving night instruction in the XCub tomorrow, and know how I'll be conducting the preflight now.

[frozentundra]

I think the cases of homeowners searching with a gun and no light, only to kill a loved one, make a very strong case for the need of a handheld. That's probably my most likely searching/shooting problem that could involve a light, and I prefer searching with a handheld in that situation. If I get startled, I'd rather have the muzzle averted and not need to have the gun pointed in a direction where I'm searching.

I was referring specifically to CCW context. I totally agree about the utility of handheld lights for civilians, and I find those cases absoluetly heartbreaking.

There seems to be an idea here that WMLs are a inappropriate due to a lack of evidence of real world CCW employment. I'm just not sure we're applying the same standards for evidence. Is there data indicating it's a good idea for civilians to use them inside the home? Is there evidence of situations where handheld flashlights are useful outside the home, and if not does that mean we shouldn't carry them? Are there actual examples of legal liability for civilian WML use, or is it all purely theoretical?

I honestly don't know the definitive answer to any of those questions. What I do have is empirical experience regarding the ways various lights help me see in the dark. Handheld lights are a valuable tool in my life and anyone could see why. Experiencing for myself the increased low/no light ability to make accurate hits on 5" black circles and 3x5 index cards with a WML/laser is, perhaps, not to be discounted in the face of this evidence vacuum. I wouldn't go out of my way to carry one, but now I don't have to because it's easier to carry one than not.





On a slightly irreverent note, I'd like to point out that there is no evidence that invisible, phase shifted aliens aren't following me around and collecting my farts to sell on the intergalactic black market. My intuition and empirical experience will have to serve me well in lieu of evidence here.

[BWT]

Certainly Tom Given's dataset, or Tom Corria's footage tends to support your statement.

That said, a criminal opened fire on me from a position of darkness while I was fully illuminated in my doorway. Fortunately, he missed with the two or three shots he fired. I would have welcomed a WML on my handgun that night.

Honestly, that’s a valid point as well.

Another thing for most functions your cell phone light (I’d assume most people have smart phones) would be just as effective as a hand held for working on cars or whatever. I’m constantly capturing data off of servers, switching/networking infrastructure with a smart phone and it has a camera.

When would 300+ Lumen light versus whatever’s in my iPhone not be sufficient?

I think you’ve offered an example of where being shot at while being illuminated and not having a flashlight put you in a deficit? Can you elaborate on this experience?

I say this honestly, I see flash lights as good better best. Having a flash light of any kind? Keychain/pocket? Okay, good. Have a substantial dedicated tactical light such as a G2 or modern equivalent with a pocket clip that’s easily reachable? Better. Having a WML with 1000+ lumens and a hand held? Best.

But so is having a spare magazine, a tourniquet, having fixed blade versus folding, etc., etc. some kind of training, etc. I’ll tell you right now I don’t carry all of these things.

To me, for the task of shooting with a handgun WML is best and I’ll get by with my iPhone light for messing with whatever. But! The bigger the gun the less likely to carry - so that’s why it took me about 10+ years before finally carrying and buying a WML.

[Mark D]

Honestly, that’s a valid point as well.

I think you’ve offered an example of where being shot at while being illuminated and not having a flashlight put you in a deficit? Can you elaborate on this experience?

Short version - I interrupted some dudes who had broken into my car, which was parked on the curb. They started running down a dark street, then one guy stopped and opened fire on me and a friend while we (foolishly) stood in the lighted doorway. Similar to the incident referenced by @TC215, the only visual reference I had was muzzle flashes. Probably an outlier event, but informative to me, nonetheless.

ETA: For whatever it's worth, I like TLR8's on my G19's. It's a pretty small light with decent output, and I find the laser to be extremely fast in poor light.

[frozentundra]

A light in general is going to be of far more utility in most people's life than a firearm. As GJM pointed out, people tend to frown on one whipping out their favorite people-popper just to peer at something that you can't see well.

The basis of this thread was the NECESSITY of a WML for Joe Schmoe trying not to get schwacked outside Wal-Mart by meth-head Mike trying to shake them down for pocket change. I'm a big advocate of do whatever the hell you want but in the context of the presented query we see it's not necessary. Now of course we could go down the rabbit-hole of how much do any of us need to carry a gun at all but then we're just into discourse for the sake of.

If you've decided you're comfortable with doing "x" and there's nothing lost, then drive on and you do you. I suppose me and some of the others are just in the camp of old men yelling at clouds when most folks are running WMLs with no understanding of how to do so properly (it's for the 'Gram) and tend to forget it's a GUN with a light attached and treat it as simply a lighting source. Trust me, I get the hankering every now and then to plunk down some coin on an X300 and a Phlster Floodlight but then I look at how much ammo I could buy instead and I'm trying to game some USPSA and need bullets. Maybe I'll get kilt in da streetz, but I've made my priorities and am happy. If you've done the same, drive on.

I thought the basis of the thread was the UTILITY of a WML for concealed carry? I missed the part about the necessity. I don't think anyone has suggested they are more useful or replace a handheld flashlight?

I was totally on your side of the fence before the current crop of compact light/lasers hit the market. I used to think it was a combination of LARPing and masochism. It seems to me the utility/encumbrance ratio has dropped to the point of being no more LARPish/masochistic than carrying a pistol at all. And for some reason I feel the need to post about it on this internet thread. Probably I'm just bored and should go outside and yell at the clouds instead.