The use of light for civilian self-defense should be a course of study unto itself. There is so much more to it than what is usually discussed, even in this thread.
In any case, I'm a huge advocate of purpose-built hand held lights. By "purpose-built" I mean a light that is specifically intended to be used with or without a pistol for self-defensive purposes. Though I don't use WMLs on pistols, I can certainly appreciate the additional options they offer in a SD situation.
XC-1B model? Thanks for including the family.Originally Posted by TGS
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Based on what experience do you make this statement?
I always knew lights were preferable versus no lights but carried without. Heck Todd G. the founder of this forum used to carry an off weapon light and had several articles on it - I’m surprised this is such a deal here.
I searched for an instance for about 3-4 minutes and then decided I know situations in my life prompted me to get a weapon mounted light and appreciate an off weapon light.
For example, I came home early on in my marriage and home ownership and my front door was wide open. I didn’t know if someone was in my house, but I went to find out. Turns out there wasn’t. You know what would’ve been great to have in that moment? A flash light. Of any kind. I didn’t get to choose the time or place or get a chance to argue with my front door about the statistics of me needing a light. Turns out the door just needed to be fixed.
Then I had children, and I heard something downstairs that scared my wife. So, barricading in my room wasn’t an option, so I grabbed my handgun and cleared the house. I had a weapon light at that time and greatly appreciated it. I also want to be able to see if a person is in my child’s room as much information as I can. Maybe you don’t have that. Fair enough.
Then two weeks ago, my 9 month old ate what I believe was an uncooked pasta noodle and nearly choked to death. I ran upstairs and grabbed an off hand flashlight because I couldn’t see where the item was and finger sweeps were making it worse. Thank God, he swallowed it and was fine. That’s inspired me to get CPR training because I realized years of carrying a gun, two years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu meant nothing to my small choking child. But having a light to get information was helpful but would’ve been more helpful if I had it with me because by the time I could run and grab it and get back he had swallowed it. He calmed and we cancelled the ambulance.
I look at it like this not to be melodramatic, but years ago my brother and I were headed to the gym and then to Walmart. We debated going to Walmart before the gym or after - decided after. When we got there police were everywhere and the parking lot was taped down and a helicopter was swirling. Turns out some guy had grabbed some kitchen knives from a display and was running around trying to stab people before we got there. Honestly, if we had gone to Walmart first we would’ve been there when that happened in that side of the store.
Now there’s three personal examples of having and not having a light helping in different ways. The last is an illustration to me - ego, internet posturing and debate aside. The last situation and any situation (god forbid) that finds you needing to defend yourself will not probably give you any advance warning and will look different than what you expected. I will probably have little control to it happening. But, what I can do is prepare as best I can. Now what you both think you will need (Shawn and UTM) - I don’t know. I know what I carry and recommend but, hey you guys do what you think is best.
I think it’s worth it and have seen a light be valuable and have regretted not having a light in two out of three examples.
Fair enough?
Last edited by BWT; 02-14-2022 at 09:03 AM.
God Bless,
Brandon
Not trying to pick on you, but I don't think any of these situations provide a compelling argument for a WML for concealed carry.
A weapon mounted light would definitely make trying to clear a structure easier, and unlike the next scenario in this scenario you are limited to your concealed carry gear. However, most people (myself included) aren't trained for this type of thing and even if you are clearing an entire house by yourself is not ideal. If you have reason to believe someone is in your house you are better off calling the police and letting them deal with this.
A weapon mounted light is absolutely useful in this situation, but if you are already home you aren't limited to the gun that you carry. I think most people would argue that having a home defense gun with a WML is a great idea, be it a long gun or handgun. In this case you get the advantages of the WML without the disadvantages that come along with it for carry purposes.
Having a handheld light on you all the time is definitely a great idea. Having multiple stashed around your house is also a great idea in case of situations like this or power outages.
A WML likely wouldn't have added much value in that situation as the inside of the store would have been well lit. If it had been in the parking lot it may have been useful for the police, but as a civilian you would either have enough light to tell the guy has a knife and you can take care of the situation as needed, or you wouldn't have enough light to tell he had a knife but then wouldn't be aware of the deadly threat to justify pointing your gun at people.
As it was mentioned before, there are hundreds of defensive handgun use cases captured on film and not very many where a WML would have been useful. Does that mean it wouldn't ever be useful or that it is a bad idea to have one? Definitely not.
I don't carry with a WML but do carry a Modlite with a Switchback that I can use for shooting relatively well. I've made several (probably too many) attempts to find a comfortable carry setup with a WML, but I always end up not liking the smaller underpowered lights or finding the full size lights just too bulky and uncomfortable to deal with. As new options come out (the full power but small Cloud Defensive coming out soon looks interesting) I'm sure I'll try again because even though having a WML may not be a significant advantage, I'll take every advantage I can get if it doesn't come with the discomfort penalty.
Agreed on all counts. The last example was more of an illustration of a defensive situation is come as you are and I’m up for taking any advantage I can get. I also didn’t have a gun with me because I was going to and returning from the gym.
Same reason I started using RDO’s on some pistols (not a carry gun yet).
Was going through my house with a gun in the first example wise? Honestly, No. But, hindsight is 20/20.
But hey, they’re examples.
ETA: I re-read that and we don’t agree. But I also don’t care to keep going down this rabbit hole too much further in all due respect. I’m convinced - and that’s fine. Whatever you want to do is your decision.
All good on my end. Thanks
Last edited by BWT; 02-14-2022 at 09:30 AM.
God Bless,
Brandon
And here I thought this topic had been moderately well-settled but hey I guess if it's not a caliber debate there's always another dead horse to beat.
Between the data we have from BBI, Tom Givens and the multitude of civilian incidents available on Active Self Protection's channel I can't say I recall a necessity for a WML in any of those where the defender was outside their home (the original context of this thread). Now, perhaps I could've missed one or two and I would welcome a correction from any of those sources.
In order to be victimized by a criminal actor, they need to be able to see you in order to be able to facilitate their assault. Now I could probably drum up some EMP + NVG utilizing badguys coming to shake you down for your change outside QT but I can't imagine why they'd choose to shake you down unless you're Jason Bourne or Jack Reacher. But then again after all the fuckery of the last two years I'm not going to completely discount any such shenanigans, so whip out your trusty people-popper with PL350 (or an o-light for "good 'nuff" ) and get to work if that happens.
As for the scenario of shining a light at sumdood's face and him calling the cops claiming you pointed a gun at him, I don't know that most people would associate a light in the face to there being a gun involved but if it's a career criminal getting a light in his face and his prior experience with a light in his face is that it's the po-leese I can see where that jump to conclusion comes from for them. But then those sorts of folks aren't typically calling 911 because then it gets the po-leese involved and they don't talk to the po-leese.
Back on topic to the whole WML for a concealed weapon topic it's all a matter of evaluating the need for such on your own criteria and being objective about it. Most folks won't be served by adding it to their carry but if you live in po-dunk nowhere or there's been a power outage and your streetlights aren't on while you're walking Fido and a bear or a bobcat comes charging at you, yeah I see the utility of the WML as a SECONDARY to using your handheld. Ole dipwad Donny trying to strong-arm you for $5 outside your local stop-n-rob may not necessitate a light to see him doing something that necessitates putting a gun in his face.
At the end of the day though, it's 'Murica and if you want to put a WML on your gun just cause it's bitchin' then by all means, go for it. Options are nice. But at the very least have a handheld. And be versed on the proper utilization on such in any case.
One thing stuck with me not long ago as far as home defense goes, and that's it would sure suck for you to shoot some shadow figure at 3 AM only for it to be your kid and their last words be "Daddy, it's me."
“Conspiracy theories are just spoiler alerts these days.”
This is a good point. The WML I've used that performs as well as the handheld I carry is the TLR1 HL, but I've found that holsters with that light aren't as nearly as comfortable. The TLR7 is probably the best compromise, but it's not nearly as good of a light as my handheld. I too am looking forward to the Cloud Defensive light. I wish Streamlight would make an 18350 TLR7. They could drive it pretty hard and get close to TLR1HL performance.
The point of this thread was never to be anti-WML, just that it's not a necessary accessory for concealed carry. At the time (2008), I made that choice because the benefits of AIWB were worth it to me, and there weren't any good light bearing AIWB holsters (this is pre-Looper, so we were still modifying straight drop IWB holsters) or small lights with decent output. Even the X200 was being rapidly outclassed in output by early Cree led drop ins.
That has happened several times. I recall the interview with a Dad. He and his wife go out. The daughter is supposed to be at a friend's house. She comes home early. Decides to play a prank. Leaves the front door ajar and hides. Dad arrives and see that. Gets the 357 mag to clear. He enters. She jumps out and goes BOO. He goes Bang - COM. She dies in his arms saying - Daddy I love you.
I would never go into my house if we were both out and I found the door open. If my wife and kids were inside - still call the cops and tell them. Might yell the law is on the way. However, this is debatable given some classic instances of the law not entering. I might go in.
Probably can find the interview on the web somewhere. It is heart breaking. More tragically, it is not unknown for the accidental shooter to kill themselves on the spot. There as a story of a small boy who did that after accidentally shooting his sister. Called 911 and then bang. Recently, https://www.newsweek.com/man-warding...es-say-1677973
I carry a hand held and it has had much real world utility. I note from being a 'terroist' in an exercise and hidden away - the entering officers with lights were easy targets. I'm told there are techniques to avoid such. In one case, as they entered with their lights, I used mine for confusion and distraction.
Clearing out determined bad guys who get time to set an ambush, inside a structure, without taking casualties is nearly impossible. Even for those with the best mindset, training, and gear. Lights or no lights, that's a bad day.
Does any of the data even indicate a necessity for a handheld light? Do we have this kind of 'evidence' that it's a good idea to carry any flashlight? Do we need this kind of evidence to make that determination? I'm not so sure. I think the added capability is desirable regardless of precedent.
Do i need a WML for ccw? Absolutely not. But.....
With this newest crop of gizmos, I am only giving up 1.5 - 2.5 oz in added weight, and I am gaining capability for 300 lumens, or 500 lumens with green laser, respectively. The holsters are actually more comfortable for strong side carry and are no less concealable. The extra weight isn't enough to notice on my hip, but 2.5 oz directly under the muzzle seems to make the gun shoot just a hair softer.
I am giving up nothing but money. I am gaining in comfort, gaining a significant potential for low-light capability, and sacrificing no concealability. If I don't need it, I won't attempt to turn it on and nothing is lost or sacrificed. If situation dictates, I can thumb the button and bring a latent capability to bear. If the unit broke, and for some reason I couldn't fix/replace it, I wouldn't even choose to alter the configuration. I would keep the dead light on the gun indefinitely so I could continue to use the more comfortable holster.
How much evidence do I need of precedent when facing this new empirical reality? Times change.
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