One of the guys I was with took a round from the Commie version of the .50 square in the chest. Lived long enough to cuss pretty good, empty one mag from his rifle and get a few rounds out of the new mag before he went down. Sure caused me to quite believing in magic bullets from that point on. FWIW my go-to long gun these days is an M1 carbine.
"PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"
Same here. I either have that (loaded with soft points) or an 870 (loaded with buckshot). My shoulder prefers when I practice with the M1 rather than the 870.Originally Posted by David Armstrong
A friend of my dad was shot down over Vietnam when his Cobra took multiple .50 or 12.7 AP rounds through the front of the bird, killing his gunner and taking the engine out. Two of these rounds also went through his abdomen. Years later he was still healthy enough to be on flight status in an Air Cav unit in Hanau Germany when I met him. He lost about six feet of intestines out of the deal, and had scars that were pretty impressive, but he had self extracted from the crash site and lived to fight another day.
Those are the kind of guys I like having on our side.
This topic has took some interesting twists and turns during 23 pages. My thoughts as I read through it:
Some people are determined to live, therefore they have the ability to continue to fight and be a threat even though they have mortal wounds. Some people just require "more killing" than others. It is what it is...
Suspects travel with associates more so than they used to. In my area it's not uncommon to have groups of 2-4 armed suspects robbing people. A 9mm with higher capacity and easier to shoot platform makes a lot of sense to me. I view ammunition like I view money. I'd rather have extra than come up short.
I have seen people shot with just about every caliber of pistol that a person can steal. The majority of our homicides are committed using FMJ rounds. It's the shot placement that seems to kill folks. I have seen rounds ride the skull bone and not penetrate. Ugly wound, but not enough to stop a determined aggressor.
Our original 9mm duty load was the Winchester 147 JHP. Sometimes it worked as it was supposed to. Sometimes it plugged up. We had one round of this ammo fired by an officer that started two weeks of full scale riots about 13 years ago. So it was hit or miss on performance with that loading. The new WW Ranger T 147 gr duty load hasn't plugged up so far for us during our OIS'. With that said, I wouldn't have an issue carrying a 124 +P GD if I had to.
I live in a part of the country where four legged threats are feral dogs and coyote. All of which can be handled by my 9mm choices. If I had to be legitimately concerned about becoming bear poop, then I would look into a big bore pistol. For this reason I feel that there is still a legitimate reason for big bore calibers, as the OP asked.
But for defense against two legged threats, I can make do with my 9mm Glock or M&P 9mm pistols. If someone feels better carrying their 45 acp, God Bless and more power to you. My adult kids have all been given a M&P9 and a Colt 6920 as they moved on with their life. I do not lose sleep wondering if they lack the tools to protect themselves.
I had a Grandfather who fought in N Africa and then in Europe during WWII. He saw the 30-06 fail to instantly stop those shot with just one round at times. But his Go-To gun in later years was an M1 carbine. He preached the importance of shot placement and good tactics. And in doing so before your opponent did the same to you.
I try to impart the same message to my kids, and those who ask my advice...
My PD just switched to the 9mm. I was given the say of what load to go with and I chose the 124 grain +P Gold Dot. The issue was, it was on backorder and we needed ammo now. I then chose the 127 grain +P+ Ranger T. This load has a good street record and from the departments I talked to, they are all very happy with it. I use to carry a Glock 21 in 45 ACP and did so for seven years. One night I watched a car jacker get hit with a 230 grain Gold Dot out of a Glock 21 through the heart, both lungs, and liver. He ran 160 yards until another officer tagged him with another Glock 21 with the same load in the back and exited at the base of his neck. This guy had a very low BAC and a little THC in his blood. He was just running on adrenaline.
As time went on, I watched another guy get hit with a 180 grain Gold Dot for a 40 Cal Glock 22. He came at a officer with a knife and the officer fired at him. He was hit in the high right shoulder through and through front to back. The suspect turned and he was hit in the left arm twice. One punched into his chest cavity and got both lungs and the aorta. The other skidded along the back rib and exited. The suspect, a highly violent mental patient walked stiffed legged for a couple of yards and went down. I personally prefer the 357 Sig because it's like a 357 mag. I like that round a lot but because of the libaberals and Obama, my ammo source dried up and I had to find a new caliber. I switched to the 9mm and carried the 127 grain +P+ Ranger T until I did a lateral transfer. I hit a few dogs with a 45 and one with a 9mm, I didn't notice any difference in stopping the aggressive animals. I don't see a reason to carry a larger caliber anymore. You aren't getting any better performance out of it. I have seen to many departments who carry the 9mm having real good luck with the 9mm to ignore it. In fact I've noticed that most guys can't handle the larger caliber and can't hit very well with them. At my old PD, I found that guys bought the 45 to get around training and felt it was like a kids safety blanket. I don't care for that. When a monster crosses your path, putting your head under a safety blanket ain't going to save you. For those who like the 45 and can shoot it well, then roll with it. I can't afford to shoot it as much as needed and I can shoot a 9mm better.
Welcome to PT Nick, good to see you here
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