.38 spl PDX1 gel test: snubby, 4", and carbine

[Al T.]

called the Super Police

I recall Tom Ferguson writing good things about that load.

[Chuck Haggard]

From what I have seen the 200gr "Super Police" was neither super nor a good police load. I had a chance to crono some, examples of our old issued duty ammo, years ago from a 4" model 66 and found it didn't break 600fps.

One of my former Chiefs shot a bad guy twice in the face with this same ammo and had both bullets ricochet off, he was nearly killed by that bad guy in a running gunfight. Fortunately a shot to the bad guy's left arm ricocheted off of the humerus and cut the brachial artery, thus causing homicidal bad guy to pass out before he could get any solid hits on our guy, who was trying to reload from dump boxes while taking cover behind a parked car.

While war stories are often war stories, the ones I heard consistently on this round was that it wouldn't reliably get into cars at all, through sheet metal or glass.

[Rich]

That's a really interesting round, actually. Technically, the 380/200, or .38-200, or 38/200 isn't a .38 S&W load, instead it is just the .38-200 specifically loaded by Kynoch for Webley revolvers. Years ago, I had a Webley MKIV that when loaded with over the counter .38 S&Ws (160-grain bullet at ~650 FPS) wouldn't shoot worth a damn. A buddy loaded me some 200-grain bullets with a recipe designed to duplicate the Kynoch loading (200 grains at roughly 650). It really livened the gun up and it was a lot more accurate.

My understanding is the 200-grain bullet was replaced later with a 180-grain bullet, because the 200-grain bullet had a tendency to tumble when it struck flesh (because it was really a tad too long and tended towards instability when hitting things) and the British, being so typically British played by the "rules" (Hague Convention). I can hear the conversation in my head, "By jove Reginald, do you realize those 200-grain bullets really do a number on the Jerries when we shoot them? It's so ghastly. Perhaps we should scale it down a bit so we don't irritate those Hague folks." And the response, "Indeed Harold, here use this .455 instead."

-Rob

PS: Thanks for the test Andrew. I haven't really seen much to make me want to avoid pure lead bullets in a .38 Special. The DPX rounds are compelling though, I hope to shoot them more in the future.

Tumble In Flesh ??

See I was told the same stories as a kid. I just wonder if there is any Gel test to show if it does?

I don't mind the low velocity. Even the 700FPS /4inch barrel 148WC is moving pretty slow out of a 1.87 barrel AW Jframe


BTW Im mistaken about the Rem 148WC not being loaded flush . I went back to find the picture and it showed a normal WC that was loaded flush with the case. Maybe I was thinking of Buffalo Bore 148 that's loaded to a higher velocity than the standard 700FPS-4inch barrel

[LSP552]

From what I have seen the 200gr "Super Police" was neither super nor a good police load. I had a chance to crono some, examples of our old issued duty ammo, years ago from a 4" model 66 and found it didn't break 600fps.

One of my former Chiefs shot a bad guy twice in the face with this same ammo and had both bullets ricochet off, he was nearly killed by that bad guy in a running gunfight. Fortunately a shot to the bad guy's left arm ricocheted off of the humerus and cut the brachial artery, thus causing homicidal bad guy to pass out before he could get any solid hits on our guy, who was trying to reload from dump boxes while taking cover behind a parked car.

While war stories are often war stories, the ones I heard consistently on this round was that it wouldn't reliably get into cars at all, through sheet metal or glass.

That's my recollection about the reputation of that load. It was never used by LSP or the other department I worked for prior, so I've never seen it used in anger. You couldn't pay me enough money to carry it. The WC will cut a significantly better patch than the round nose in flesh.

[Chuck Haggard]

The WC will cut a significantly better patch than the round nose in flesh.

And be far more likely to "stick" if it hits bone

[RevolverRob]

Tumble In Flesh ??

See I was told the same stories as a kid. I just wonder if there is any Gel test to show if it does?

I would like to see a gel test too - Here is a "clay" test (of dubious value in my opinion) https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/reb...ice-cartridge/ and I've found some water jug tests (of perhaps slightly less dubious value) that seem to indicate 200-grain LRN @ ~650 fps do tend to tumble.

[LSP972]

From what I have seen the 200gr "Super Police" was neither super nor a good police load.

I never saw any information about it, anecdotal or otherwise, until I read some of Cooper's earlier work (late 50's vintage) where he recommended it for use in aluminum-framed snubbies.

Then I found a box of it last year while rummaging around on a back shelf looking for some 9mm Mak that I knew we had somewhere. I remember thinking, "Ah, so that's what this stuff is/looks like."

The bullet has a very "short" nose (hardly any ogive), and is quite long, but its definitely a round nose. And these bullets are "Lubaloy"… Winchester's trade named for copper-washed lead bullets designed to reduce leading. IOW, pretty much the same thing folks are selling these days as "plated" bullets. Speaking of them, I almost had a stroke when I saw how much Rainier, et. al. is charging for those things these days.

Anyway… all probably more than anyone cared about, but there it is…

.

[Rich]

Yes . In the pic above the bullet does have a short nose. The article goes one to say it yaw in flesh.

I agree with you guys that the WC is way better than RNL.