Why a shotgun?

[burntorangefan]

Just stumbled on this thread. I chose a shotgun because I was raised in West Texas hunting pheasants and quail and I had the most confidence in shotguns over other types. That said, the Benelli M4 that's lived close to me for a decade is going to need a new home or just live in a safe because of concerns for over penetration (correctly or incorrectly) and children in the house (the M4 loves 00 and slugs). I'm moving on to a PCC for this reason, but have great admiration for the AR platform as well. I've started the long process of collecting stamps for the (not soon to be) SBR'd B&T.

[Unobtanium]

Just stumbled on this thread. I chose a shotgun because I was raised in West Texas hunting pheasants and quail and I had the most confidence in shotguns over other types. That said, the Benelli M4 that's lived close to me for a decade is going to need a new home or just live in a safe because of concerns for over penetration (correctly or incorrectly) and children in the house (the M4 loves 00 and slugs). I'm moving on to a PCC for this reason, but have great admiration for the AR platform as well. I've started the long process of collecting stamps for the (not soon to be) SBR'd B&T.

PCC vastly out-penetrates buckshot on building materials. 1oz foster slugs typically do 12-16" in gel. PCC's do about the same. I suppose since you posted "correctly or incorrectly" though, facts are not the issue at hand, but rather, perception.

[burntorangefan]

PCC vastly out-penetrates buckshot on building materials. 1oz foster slugs typically do 12-16" in gel. PCC's do about the same. I suppose since you posted "correctly or incorrectly" though, facts are not the issue at hand, but rather, perception.

Interesting. I'd always heard and read that buckshot and/or slugs penetrated more, but lacked the actual statistics to back it up either way. Would be interested in a real study where different calibers are shot through "rooms" of drywall similar to home construction. I think simple ballistics gel, while better than nothing, doesn't necessarily mimic what happens in the real world...it occurs to me that driving as deep as possible into ballistic gel is different than punching thru a 1/2" sheet of drywall, continuing another 10 feet thru empty space for example, punching thru another sheet, etc.

[Wondering Beard]

There has been various studies and tests done on this, however, I'm nowhere near home and I can't link to any of them.

Short version, limited by memory:
Pistol rounds can go right through various rooms , pick your fields of fire in advance.
Buckshot can do so as well, but starts slowing down faster. Still pick your fields of fire.
Hard cast slugs have little problem going through a whole house or more. Pick your fields of fire.
Soft lead slugs probably work the same as buckshot for going through rooms (i.e. drywall). Pick your fields of fire.
.223/5.56 will likely penetrate the least if loaded with a light fast hollow/soft point that fragments easy, but those rounds while effective, aren't as effective on people (lack of penetration) as rounds that are more dangerous to people in another room. Pick your fields of fire
Birdshot will penetrate as much, or less as the light .223 but it's effectiveness on people is highly questionable. Still pick your fields of fire.

Conclusion: nobody knows who's on the other side of the wall; any ammo, in any caliber, in any loading that is useful on people is dangerous to someone behind a wall. Pick your fields of fire.

[Unobtanium]

Interesting. I'd always heard and read that buckshot and/or slugs penetrated more, but lacked the actual statistics to back it up either way. Would be interested in a real study where different calibers are shot through "rooms" of drywall similar to home construction. I think simple ballistics gel, while better than nothing, doesn't necessarily mimic what happens in the real world...it occurs to me that driving as deep as possible into ballistic gel is different than punching thru a 1/2" sheet of drywall, continuing another 10 feet thru empty space for example, punching thru another sheet, etc.

I've shot plenty of 2x4's and the like with buckshot. 00 punches ONE 2x4 in my experience. May or may not embed in the one behind it. This is at about 5 yards. As to the slug...

[Beat Trash]

Interesting. I'd always heard and read that buckshot and/or slugs penetrated more, but lacked the actual statistics to back it up either way. Would be interested in a real study where different calibers are shot through "rooms" of drywall similar to home construction. I think simple ballistics gel, while better than nothing, doesn't necessarily mimic what happens in the real world...it occurs to me that driving as deep as possible into ballistic gel is different than punching thru a 1/2" sheet of drywall, continuing another 10 feet thru empty space for example, punching thru another sheet, etc.

Several years ago a west coast agency conducted the exact study you are asking about. They built walls that represented every type of interior and exterior wall commonly encountered. Test weapons were a Remington 870 with 00 Buck, 9mm fired out of a duty pistol and out of an MP5 and M193 55gr 5.56mm ammunition fired out of a 20" M16A1. The 9mm penetrated the most. Has something to do with sectional density. The 55 gr penetrated the least, as it tended to break up upon hitting studs, ect. I used to have a printout of their report. I may still have it, but as I was sent a copy by a friend within that agency, and I don't know that they wanted it released, I don't feel comfortable discussing the specific agency by name.

Anything that penetrates within soft tissue far enough will have over penetration issues within a home. I've seen 9mm pistol rounds penetrated through two interior walls and into the next townhouse in a housing project. In 24 years of urban LE work, I've seen a lot of different calibers penetrate things I wouldn't have expected the round to do.

I don't know that I would use a slug loaded shotgun inside of my home. But if you like a buck shot loaded shotgun, then by all means go for it. Same for a 5.56mm carbine, or a pistol caliber carbine. Most interior walls are just drywall (sheet rock). Drywall isn't going to stop anything of note.

What's more important to me when talking of over penetration in a home defense situation is not the caliber of the weapon, but clear fields of fire. This is a huge training issue for urban LE. Do you have a clear backstop? IF the suspect is standing in front of innocent persons, can you take the shot? Same logic within one's home. I recently walked my daughter through her new house, discussing things like places of cover, of concealment and fields of fire that did not have her kids rooms as backstops.

In my home, a pistol is the primary weapon available when I think there may be an issue. A 5.56mm AR carbine is the weapon available when I know there is an issue. For many years I kept a 00 Buck loaded 870 available within my home. I still think it's an excellent weapon for this task. But I remarried, and my wife is smaller and can not effectively run an 870. But give her a light weight AR and she can tattoo her initials on someone's forehead if need be... So the 870 has been retired in my home.

When discussing over penetration as it relates to home defense, I think it's easy to confuse a hard ware issue with a soft ware issue.

[Malamute]

Small point of note, theres always going to be two layers of drywall between rooms, generally spaced 3 1/2" apart.

If designing a home, theres things that could be done to reduce penetration effects, but most probably aren't willing to go to the levels required to do it. It would likely be expensive unless doing it all yourself.

[Drang]

When I took my defensive shotgun course at Firearms Academy of Seattle they ran a video that Marty Hayes made about shotgun penetration back when he was actually teaching in the Seattle area. Doubt much has changed.

We'll see how this table looks...

Load	Sheet Rock	Plywood
#8 “Dove”	Some penetration all three layers	None
#7 ½ Target	Full penetration 2 layers, some of 3rd	None
#6	Full penetration all three layers	None
#4 Birdshot	Full penetration all three layers	Damage to 1st layer face, no penetration
#4 Buckshot	Full penetration all three layers	Penetration of 1st layer
#1 Buckshot	Full penetration all three layers	Penetration 1st and 2nd layers
0 Buckshot	Full penetration all three layers	Penetration 1st and 2nd layers
00 Buckshot	Full penetration all three layer	Penetration of 1st-3rd layers
Slug, 1 ounce	Full penetration both layers*	Penetration of 7 layers of plywood.

*"Slug" is "both layers" of sheet rock instead of "all three" because they an out of sheet rock. Considering they got penetration of 7 layers of plywood, it hardly invalidates the test results...

[Malamute]

Using the heavier thickness of sheetrock, like 5/8 is a start, plywood on one or both walls under the sheetrock is another step, the most effective is probably adding pea gravel to the cavities between the studs after all the inside wall work is done, and adding it from one side before the last level of rock is added at the higher level of the wall. Using heavier sheetrock may be needed in that case to keep the gravel from bulging the walls out some, but it may be OK, not positive. You wouldn't even need to go full wall height if basically wanting people protection, just high enough to cover a standing person. The studs will still be weak points, but if going full loco, building a wall that's basically two walls with staggered studs with a bit of space between the stud and each alternating wall side so theres no stud going completely through to both sides can alleviate that. Its been used in extreme cold environments to reduce cold bleed through on studs.

Using steel studs in the wall would largely eliminate soft points. The gravel could better fill the existing void.

If cold bleed through wasn't a serious problem, pea gravel may be the simplest way to upgrade an existing house walls defensively. You still have windows to deal with, but having hard cover is an improvement. Theres probably a way to do it and not compromise the insulative value of outside walls.

Its been quite a while since I looked this stuff up. Some things are starting to filter back into mind. If reinforcing just one side with plywood to help hold gravel, the back side is probably best, its the side that's going to get the beating when a bullet hits the gravel.

The wall loads need to be calculated and be sure you have sufficient support under them. Support can be added to of course, in many instances. I cut a small rectangular slot on the rim of a house that needed more support, we fed all the beams into the crawl space (or basement, I fed a ton of sheetrock into a basement that same way, the stairs were tight and cornered), then fixed that one small area and finished over it.

ETA: I looked a couple vids up, 3 1/2" of gravel stopped 5.56 and 308 in the simple youtube hillbilly test I saw in a quick look.

[DocGKR]

Uh....there are LOTS of studies looking at the effects of various intermediate barriers on different types of projectiles. In fact virtually every single valid study over the past 30 years by folks like the FBI BRF, JSWB_IPT, IWBA, etc... included that type of information.

For example, see: Roberts GK: “Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons--The Wounding Effects 
of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% 
Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”. Wound Ballistics Review. 3(4):16-27, 1998.

Typically pistol caliber ammunition offers the deepest penetration after first going through an interior wall and hitting tissue; .223/5.56mm OTM ammo offers the least penetration in the same circumstance. Stay away from birdshot for defensive use and consider #1 buckshot.