Why a shotgun?

[Chuck Haggard]

Does a long gun (rifle, shotgun) not offer the same or more potential leverage?

Sorta, it certainly gives the gun holder vastly more leverage to hang on to the gun if it gets grabbed.

[Wheeler]

I'm not sure how to quantify that to be able to answer your question. I guess I'll answer it like this: The semi certainly isn't going to slow me down, the pump might. With the semi, my mind only has to process "Oh shit, bad guy not down - press trigger again." With the pump, I would have to be trained to the point that cycling the action immediately following the shot was second nature. Otherwise, my thought process would have to include cycling the action. Not a huge deal, especially with training, but I don't see any benefit to the pump over a known-reliable semi, especially one with the select/changeover capabilities of the M1.

There's a fair few folks who think pumps are more reliable than semi's because of the manual cycling. I'm not one of them. The reason I asked is that in my own shooting I've noticed that I can yank the trigger much, much faster than I can recover the sights. I can recover the sights faster than I can think so there's a pause in my shot, assessment, decide then shoot again if need be. I can make those assessments while cycling a pump, but I have to pause when shooting a semi-auto to do the same. That's the long version of why I asked. I hope it makes sense.

[ASH556]

There's a fair few folks who think pumps are more reliable than semi's because of the manual cycling. I'm not one of them. The reason I asked is that in my own shooting I've noticed that I can yank the trigger much, much faster than I can recover the sights. I can recover the sights faster than I can think so there's a pause in my shot, assessment, decide then shoot again if need be. I can make those assessments while cycling a pump, but I have to pause when shooting a semi-auto to do the same. That's the long version of why I asked. I hope it makes sense.

It makes perfect sense and despite its simplicity is something probably lost on most folks. The only way I can think to quantify it would be looking at my numbers from a very simple stage at the last 3-gun match. 5-steel popper array, maybe 10 or 15 feet out, then 4 steel plates at about 45 feet. Shotgun loaded with 5 rounds, low ready, pistol holstered with 8 rounds. On the buzzer, knock down all 5 poppers with the shotgun, then transition to pistol and put two apiece on the 45ft steel. My time was 10.14 seconds. How does that break down? Well, I know my pistol draw to first round is well over a second. At this point, 1:30+ is about the best I can manage and that's hitting something at 7 yds, not 15. Bottom line is subtracting 2:14 for the shotgun to pistol transition is a pretty safe bet. That leaves 8 seconds to make the 5 shotgun hits, decide that I've hit all of them, and then get the pistol hits. I'm using rifle sights on the Benelli with the front sight blade painted green. I recall seeing it on every target, then assessing that the target is down before moving on.

Could I do it in a gunfight? Maybe, maybe not. Still, the training is at least somewhat there. As far as recoil management, the shotgun has a Limbsaver pad and I weigh 300lb, so it doesn't move that much.

Fair answer?

[Fire-Medic]

This thread was an excellent read and has made me re-organize my list of priorities on what I need in the arsenal now and what can wait. I have come to the conclusion that "for me" and "mine" the shotgun needs to come before an upper to slap on the AR lower again.

Thanks to all who contributed with their info and points of view.

[Wheeler]

It makes perfect sense and despite its simplicity is something probably lost on most folks. The only way I can think to quantify it would be looking at my numbers from a very simple stage at the last 3-gun match. 5-steel popper array, maybe 10 or 15 feet out, then 4 steel plates at about 45 feet. Shotgun loaded with 5 rounds, low ready, pistol holstered with 8 rounds. On the buzzer, knock down all 5 poppers with the shotgun, then transition to pistol and put two apiece on the 45ft steel. My time was 10.14 seconds. How does that break down? Well, I know my pistol draw to first round is well over a second. At this point, 1:30+ is about the best I can manage and that's hitting something at 7 yds, not 15. Bottom line is subtracting 2:14 for the shotgun to pistol transition is a pretty safe bet. That leaves 8 seconds to make the 5 shotgun hits, decide that I've hit all of them, and then get the pistol hits. I'm using rifle sights on the Benelli with the front sight blade painted green. I recall seeing it on every target, then assessing that the target is down before moving on.

Could I do it in a gunfight? Maybe, maybe not. Still, the training is at least somewhat there. As far as recoil management, the shotgun has a Limbsaver pad and I weigh 300lb, so it doesn't move that much.

Fair answer?

That works for me. I'm slowly learning to read my sights as I shoot. It's hard for me to mentally process that information to my mind's satisfaction. As one of the top shooters in the world (placed fourth in this year's Steel Challenge World Shoot,) "...that's the difference between 5000 rounds a year and 20,000 rounds a year."

[Tamara]

Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

[ASH556]

Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

That's a good read. For me and mine, I still stay with what I laid out above. One thing worth noting is how SIGNIFICANTLY lighter a Benelli is than an 870 or a 590.

[Wheeler]

Grant Cunningham offered his thoughts on the gauge for home defense purposes today.

That has to be the first time that I've seen that the use of a shotgun for home defense is based on a macho ego, not to be confused with the recommendations of gun store commandos.
It seems to me that moving through a structure with an AR or lever action would offer the same disadvantages as with a splattergun. That sort of negates that particular argument.

[Tamara]

I was just providing the link. I'm withholding editorial commentary for the nonce.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I currently, and temporarily, have my hands on a box-mag-fed, 14" barreled, collapsible-stocked pump shotgun.

I'm taking it to a 1-day course/drill session on Sunday. I've never been a shotgun guy at all; I'm pretty sure I've written the entire article referenced above several times on various forums while explaining my reluctance to use shotguns and my preference for ARs.

Now I have a shotgun which obviates my single biggest issue: reload times. And in Canada, the pump gun is non-restricted...i.e. in theory at least, I could sling it and walk to work. In practise of course this would result in immediate ERT intervention but in theory, it's a carry gun, even in Canada.

Suddenly I find myself liking the idea of what is basically a legally-no-different-than-a-over-under, 5000 RPM .32 SMG stuck on 9-round burst, with FMJ-stuffed mags ranging in size from 54 to 180 rounds. Yeah...I'm totally comfortable with this as a home defense machine.

I'm sticking a T1 and an X300u on top and I think I'm going to tear some targets up big time this Sunday.


Coincidentally I own an 870 that I literally never use. I own it solely because it was cheap and I felt like I was supposed to own one. If this machine works out I'm definitely dumping it and insisting they give me the gun when all is said and done.