When is it too soon to get on the trigger?

[JV_]

it's working now

[RevolverRob]

Me too, generally speaking. As an observation, when I transition from revolvers to things with lighter triggers like 1911s, I have to spend a certain amount of time actively changing when I touch the trigger. I've had practice sessions where the gun will go off well before I intended it to, but the round always goes into the berm and frequently into the target itself.

I'm confused here - When you're shooting lighter triggers you've had this happen or when shooting DA wheelies?

Second question - Are you starting on the takeup while still as JHC put it, "climbing the escalator" or are you simply riding on the trigger up and out?

FWIW - I agree with the consensus, too soon is when the muzzle is covering something/someone you don't want it to. I also have to work pretty hard to not end up with my finger on the trigger as I "climb the escalator" (good term, I like that one) with a DA revolver, it's something I try to consciously focus on in dry fire to avoid it. That said I have found my fastest shots come from riding the trigger up and beginning the stroke when I start tracking the front sight, not something I can do as well with a gun with a lighter trigger.

[jetfire]

I'm confused here - When you're shooting lighter triggers you've had this happen or when shooting DA wheelies?

Second question - Are you starting on the takeup while still as JHC put it, "climbing the escalator" or are you simply riding on the trigger up and out?

FWIW - I agree with the consensus, too soon is when the muzzle is covering something/someone you don't want it to. I also have to work pretty hard to not end up with my finger on the trigger as I "climb the escalator" (good term, I like that one) with a DA revolver, it's something I try to consciously focus on in dry fire to avoid it. That said I have found my fastest shots come from riding the trigger up and beginning the stroke when I start tracking the front sight, not something I can do as well with a gun with a lighter trigger.

I've had the gun make loud noises a little early when shooting 1911s/guns with lighter triggers than revolvers, but only after I've spent a considerable amount of time on a revolver. It's always been with the gun pointed downrange into the berm and frequently into the target, but a 100% honest evaluation of myself says that it's still an ND because I didn't want the gun to go off that second.

With the wheelie, I'm just riding the trigger out to full extension in that shot. As Bob noted, it's only something you can see with high speed photography, but it's there. Once the gun hits "acceptable sight picture" I press the trigger. I have my 1st shot with a DA revolver down to 1.25 on a A-zone at 10 yards.

[TCinVA]

When you are playing games it's normally in the rules. When you are NOT playing games then when you shoot your self, that's too soon.

Either I don't get the joke, or that's one of the silliest things anyone has ever posted.

A pic of Bob at the IDPA Nationals this weekend. Naturally the internet Safety Patrol came out in force. Bob's reply: In reality guys this is what it takes sometimes to get a 1second draw from concealment. Realize of course the ONLY way anyone can see this (on skilled shooters) is in high speed photography after the fact. Try it sometime yourself?? Bottom line is muzzle is downrange (not pointed at me or anyone else) and I am in the process of engaging a very close target. That said I still don't think my finger is quite touching the trigger. If I was having ADs into the ground within the thousands of rounds I shoot every year I also think I would change things up. Like I said I think this is the reality of high speed practical shooting sometimes. Is it unsafe? I guess that depends on the shooter and the circumstance. Many people still consider just running around with a gun to be unsafe. The simple truth of this world though is that to be altogether safe often means you sacrifice effectiveness.....of which I happen to care a great deal about........and we all have to find our own balance between the two.

A number of us did a class with Bob last year, and I think we all got quite a bit out of it.

Todd took some pictures and he showed me a sequence where trying to make time I was getting my finger on the trigger earlier than I had intended. Not quite as early as in the photo you posted, but more like where Caleb was in that the gun wasn't quite in my eyeline yet but I was still well clear of the holster and was just about to start my press-out. I would have sworn I wasn't doing that if someone had asked me, but there it was in high resolution color.

I bet if you broke down how Jerry Miculeck does his top level speed work with a revolver you'll see him on the trigger pretty early, too.

In fairness to Bob, he's hauling serious buttocks when he's drawing that handgun:



He's cramming quite a bit into a very compressed time frame...and it seems to be working for what he's doing.

Should I adopt this practice if my primary goal is self defense? No.

...but this kind of thing happens when just about anyone tries to go "fast". I've watched it happen at AFHF and other classes...when someone pushes speed, they often get on the trigger earlier, usually without realizing it. This is one of the reasons why I like having a longer trigger pull on a carry gun and why guys who have experience handling bad guys and training others to do the same talk about "street triggers". That little bit of an extra margin of safety can be the difference between nothing and tragedy.

[JHC]

RevoRob - the "escalator" analogy to the movement of the gun out to index was Frank Proctor's terminology for the method he taught us. FWIW.

[RevolverRob]

I've had the gun make loud noises a little early when shooting 1911s/guns with lighter triggers than revolvers, but only after I've spent a considerable amount of time on a revolver. It's always been with the gun pointed downrange into the berm and frequently into the target, but a 100% honest evaluation of myself says that it's still an ND because I didn't want the gun to go off that second.

With the wheelie, I'm just riding the trigger out to full extension in that shot. As Bob noted, it's only something you can see with high speed photography, but it's there. Once the gun hits "acceptable sight picture" I press the trigger. I have my 1st shot with a DA revolver down to 1.25 on a A-zone at 10 yards.

Thanks for the clarification Caleb.

[Jack Ryan]

Either I don't get the joke, or that's one of the silliest things anyone has ever posted.

Probably a little of both.

[Chuck Haggard]

If the decision to fire has been made, and you're are in a safe direction with the muzzle, and working to get onto target outside of a contact shooting scenario, I'm good with it.

Frankly I think that Col. Cooper got #3 a bit wrong. Not only should the trigger finger be outside the trigger guard until the decision to fire is made, but it should be at a point of positive index until you get all three of the factors I noted above.

[Jack Ryan]

That is some pretty nice circular reasoning there.

Most of the shooting games I've tried specify when you are NOT allowed to have your finger on the trigger. Any time after that I'm ok with.

When I'm threatened, I intend to have my finger on the trigger. If you don't get shot by the threat or yourself, it wasn't too soon.

Sure it's intended to be an entertaining turn of phrase but I don't see how it's something difficult to understand or controversial. I'm almost sorry I brought it up.

[TCinVA]

Most of the shooting games I've tried specify when you are NOT allowed to have your finger on the trigger. Any time after that I'm ok with.

When I'm threatened, I intend to have my finger on the trigger. If you don't get shot by the threat or yourself, it wasn't too soon.

That is a completely ridiculous assertion.

It presumes a completely binary world where one is either justified in shooting or is not otherwise holding a weapon. As if human beings won't be attempting to decipher a complex and evolving situation with a gun in their hand, or won't be experiencing stress in what is to most of them one of the most stressful and unfamiliar situations they will ever encounter.

It's possible to drive down an icy road at 100 MPH with no headlights and not end up in a horrendous crash that kills you or someone else...but that hardly makes it a best practice.