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Thread: Trigger finger placement

  1. #41
    Site Supporter JM Campbell's Avatar
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    Mods,

    Sticky Surfs post perhaps?

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  2. #42
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    We could put it into the reference section, if Surf is amenable to it and members think it's valuable enough.

  3. #43
    Site Supporter JM Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    The reference section really is underutilized and I'd like to encourage members to nominate content for it.
    BTW gents/gals of the forum you can nominate posts by clicking the report button and typing in what message you need to convey your idea.

    IE: "this post could be great sticky material"

    Just for those who might not know.


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  4. #44
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    Yes, the report post feature is also underutilized. And it works better than PM'ing one staff member because it goes to all of us. Sometimes, a staff member may be out for a week, or just forget to get back to someone, but having it go to everyone will minimize that type of issue.

  5. #45
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    Definitely add it to the reference section.

  6. #46
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Up1911Fan View Post
    Definitely add it to the reference section.
    Yes, please.

  7. #47
    The day after revisiting Surf's trigger video I shot my most confident cold Dot Torture ever.
    Difficult to articulate fully, the concepts are both simple and complex at the same time. "Ah! ha!" moments for me.
    Sticky/reference please.

  8. #48
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    Wow. Surf, thanks a ton. I think I owe you dinner if you are ever in SoCal.

    I had been having a problem with pulling shots left pretty much only when shooting at speed at targets with no obvious specific aiming point. It was getting to the point where I was just about ready to post a "help me diagnose this" thread. If I was shooting at a 2" orange target I could pretty much avoid the issue; avoiding it completely if I wasn't trying to push my split speed. I'm guessing it has to do with if I had a good enough reference point I could overcome my natural tendency to pull left, but without a plainly visible reference point I didn't pick up in the middle of my trigger press that the sights were moving within the target area. I had actually been trying to *increase* my "c clamp" pressure with my strong hand. In retrospect that was probably making things worse. I've been following your guidance on grip (with a Glock 19) for the past 10 days or so. Over the weekend I attended a course, shooting about 550 rounds. The results were much better than previous courses re: centering of my patterns on the target. With the exception of 2 specific shots where I went back to my old habits, all the patterns were centered on the target vertically.

    I realize I *maybe* could have achieved a similar result with just a "don't grip the pistol so hard with your strong hand" feedback, but the feedback below definitely solved a big issue for me.

    Now my two-handed shooting has jumped significantly past my one-hand shooting. I don't suppose you have any pearls of wisdom to share on one-hand shooting?


    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    I will first comment, as I mention in the video, that one size does not fit everyone across the board. Many have mentioned the myriad of factors that can play a role in trigger manipulation which I also discuss in the video. I will note that I too have trigger pull variations which are weapon, trigger type, trigger weight, hand fitment and trigger reach dependent. So a heavy revolver trigger, a DA/SA trigger and say a 1911 trigger have variations of pulls that allow me to manipulate the trigger with as little disruption to the sights as possible, but ideally I prefer to be about 2/3 to 3/4 towards the tip of the finger.

    Some shooters do indeed shoot well with the trigger making contact in the first joint, but the key to the manipulation is not making contact on the frame of the weapon with the sides of the trigger finger. Having an appropriate gap between the trigger finger and the frame of the weapon is overwhelmingly the key to success for most shooters. Of course there are always exceptions, but generally this holds true. The exceptions are often times shooters who use a counter torque or counter pressure technique with the support hand and do it very well. Many don't even understand that they are doing it. Which leads into the question below on grip.....

    Sorry about the delay, but it took some time here and there to punch this out. It is hard to express this in written word. Video is so much easier, but I will give it a go here.

    Setting up the Grip -
    For the most part I have often taken techniques learned on the rifle with precision long range shooting and adopted them into other weapons such as the carbine and pistol. As far as the grip goes, as soon as I adopted the modern Iso, I was never a fan of keeping the traditional alignment of the pistol's muzzle being in line with the forearm of the shooting hand. This is partially because I have short fingers and need to break that alignment to get a good trigger manipulation, but it also made less sense to me to maintain bone alignment as I will get into shortly. This straight alignment was IMO adopted from the "Weaver" and more from the "Chapman" and the "push / pull" era and recoil management and that was OK for then. Once the move towards the modern ISO with a more triangulation of the body taking place, that bone alignment was not a good thing as it created an incorrect or un-natural "point of aim". That incorrect "point of aim" forced most shooters to utilize muscular tension to torque the gun in alignment with our eyes to force that correct "point of aim".

    Now if we take the concept of the long gun where we "get behind" the weapon and create that "natural point of aim" where we move the body in a manner that allows us not to have to use muscular tension to create and maintain a correct or natural "point of aim", we should IMO apply that to a pistol. If a shooter gets into a good modern ISO, hold the pistol in both hands and while being very relaxed let both arms hang at extension and exhale. I stress that you should be very relaxed while doing this with no muscle tension. The muzzle will be almost center line of your body, in front of your dominant eye and pointed downward just in front of your feet. From this position look through your sights with your dominant eye. Do you have a correct sight alignment from this relaxed muzzle down position? If you do not have a correct sight alignment, adjust the grip on the pistol until you do have a correct sight alignment. Do not force a correct alignment with muscle tension or forcing the weapon into a correct sight alignment. When you have a correct or "natural" sight alignment that does not require any muscle tension to maintain, close your eyes and with a very relaxed movement leaving your arms extended, lift your weapon up to where your line of sight would be and then open your eyes. Did you maintain the sight picture? If yes, close your eyes take a few deep breaths and open your eyes. Did your sight alignment remain, or did it move? If you have a problem with the sight picture, repeat the process until you find a relaxed and natural "point of aim".

    Many might teach to use "counter torque" or "counter pressure" to create or maintain that correct alignment of the muzzle, however it is truly my belief that a "natural point of aim" should be established as it is less likely that your muzzle orientation and sight alignment will be negatively impacted during the firing process. IMO the muscular or skeletal tension with counter torque or counter pressure will still be more counter productive than a true natural point of aim. Of course some shooters are so good with counter torque or counter pressure that their results are not necessarily the norm, or what others should strive towards, or could ever achieve.

    Maintaining a Neutral grip -
    It is critical to maintain a neutral grip throughout the trigger pull process. As mentioned in the video, influence from the support hand thumb can be a factor but the biggest issue, especially with the Glock is the amount of pressure that is placed on the grip from front to rear (frontstrap to backstrap) of the weapon when firing the weapon. Generally a left or right only push is trigger finger. When the shots are low it is usually in relation to the grip, or a pre-ignition push (flinch), or a combination of both. Low left or low right is often a combination of trigger finger and grip / pre-ignition push. With the Modern Iso, again IMO, we do want a 360* contact on the grip with no gaps, but what we DO NOT want is front to rear grip pressure, but rather a side to side pressure. Sure we tend to call this "milking" the grip but it goes deeper than that.

    Humans are basically apes with opposing thumbs. When we close the hand to grip an object all of the fingers of the hand start to move. It is a sympathetic response. It is actually more difficult to move your trigger finger without the rest of your hand moving. If you are reading this, you are probably trying it out. If not try it out. You don't need to have anything in your hand. With your shooting hand make a letter "C" or mimic holding a soda or beer can but keep your fingers and hand relaxed. Now move your trigger finger, or attempt to pick up an object like a soda can with your trigger finger and thumb only. If you are a trained shooter or concentrate specifically, your hand will stay more steady, but you can see how easily your other fingers want to close, especially the two smaller fingers. This is a sympathetic response which is programmed for gripping an object. For many shooters as they pull trigger and the grip closes, the pinkie and ring finger apply pressure on the bottom of the frontstrap of the pistol and causes the muzzle to dip. So we really need to be able to move our trigger finger without closing our grip especially our pinkie and ring finger and we need to remember that as the explosion happens in our hand. A lot of people have issues in maintaining that neutral grip and not squeezing or applying forces on the grip of the weapon that have a negative impact.

    Locking the Grip -
    With a modern ISO and the grip I prefer to use, I use the support hands fingers as the "lock" to create a vise like action in the heels of my hand as I press the weapon towards extension. Think of Bob Vogel's grip and how he locks in his support hands pointer finger and "grinds" into the grip. My fingers are too short for my support hands pointer finger to lock onto the trigger guard as he does, but the "lock" with the support hands fingers is critical as we "grind" or press into the grip during extension causing palm swell area of the hands to press into the grip panels and creating a side to side pressure. We should make first contact with our support hands index finger under the trigger guard of the pistol, lock the fingers, then back fill the grip panel with our palm swell as we extend. This will help the "lock" with the fingers. Many will incorrectly establish the palm swell then wrap the fingers.

    We should avoid too much rear pressure on the backstrap from the shooting hands thumb. Shooters often clench down on the weapon too hard when firing which contributes to the "milking" effect. I will often demonstrate that I am not applying front to rear pressure on the pistols grip by firing a string of shots with my normal grip. I will then take the thumb of my firing hand and rotate it to the same side of the pistol as my trigger finger and again fire another string of shots with the same control on the weapon as when the thumb is wrapped. This visual demonstration is very effective for showing how I do not want to apply front to rear pressure on the grip and the shooting hands thumb is there to stabilize and not to induce a "crush" from front to rear as that causes the shooter to induce muzzle dip or the "milking" effect.

    I will say that from March 2014 to Aug 1, 2014 I did a 2 day pistol transition course where I personally trained 650 Officers. They converted from the DA/SA S&W 5906 to the 5.5 Gen4 Glock 17. I would estimate that about 40-50% of the shooters had the typical issues that many complain about with the Glock in how it shoots low and often low left or low right. In reality it is the shooter. The other big issue faced was trigger finger placement and how to more correctly to manipulate it, especially when going from the DA/SA S&W to the 5.5 striker fired Glock. I learned a great deal about my beliefs, methodology of how to best correct these issues and the actual efficacy of the techniques that I support. I will note that overall marksmanship skills increased greatly in those 2 days for the shooters who came through the course. I am also tracking student performance in real world incidents and am conducting personal debriefs where I am attempting to accumulate or notate a variety of data points throughout the incident.

    I have often taken heat for my concepts, beliefs and even for "sharing" too much information for free that is generally reserved for those selling video's or who teach paid courses. I am glad to see much of those early concepts finally coming around more mainstream from other trainers and great shooters out there. Many are coming up with some interesting terminology for concepts in regards to mechanics / science of shooting / kinestheics, blah, blah, blah, that are supposedly "cutting edge" right now. It is too bad however, that many of my follow up video's that I mention in the trigger video didn't actually make it to final edit and make it online for free.

  9. #49
    I am very glad to hear others getting good results from this info. Even though my initial post is long, there is a ton more to this topic. I would like to again re-emphasize that no single technique or method will fit every shooter. I will also note that it is tough to get results as quickly or as accurately on your own, but if that is all that you have to work with I hope this information helps. I often like to reiterate that nothing beats a competent instructor who can give direct feedback and instruction first hand. I will however comment that there are many many many more instructors out there who don't understand much of these finer points than there are those who do. Therefore when a shooter gets to a certain level of skill or understanding, seeking out those who can progress your shooting further becomes much more difficult, so chose wisely as an instructor who understands less, may be more dogmatic in their knowledge and approach and perhaps doesn't know what they don't know, can potentially do more harm than good.

  10. #50
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    I almost shed a tear the day I saw your youtube page go down. Quality of info was unparalleled.

    Thank you for sharing what you could for as long as you were able.

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