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Thread: Lehigh Defense: Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition

  1. #351
    Interesting test
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWEG7WmDra4


    9mm JHP beats .357 Mag Xtreme Penetrator

  2. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by DueSpada View Post
    Any more references to wound channels in living things?

  3. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    See now this truly has taken an interesting turn. I read in an article that Bill Wilson considers these bullets the wave of the future and I don't take that lightly with as much as Bill drops the hammer on wild critters with his guns for T&E purposes. He is on record saying the Extreme Defense has changed how many people view a defensive loading. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wi...h-bill-wilson/

    JWT: What set Lehigh Defense apart from other companies and made them attractive to Wilson Combat?
    Bill Wilson: I see solid copper bullets as the future of projectiles and Lehigh Defense is at the forefront of technology in this market. For example, our Controlled Chaos rifle bullets have amazing terminal performance and the Extreme Defense handgun bullets have changed the way many people think of a self-defense projectile.

    I put that together with Black Hills variant of those bullets custom made for them, in the Honey Badger line. I'd say these are two strong indicators of the rounds effectiveness but I wonder why you are not hearing more about agencies using these types of loads? I can't help but think it has much to do with cost vs lead bullets and associated training costs doubling. Has @DocGKR tested any of the Lehigh loads yet?

  4. #354
    I spoke with the Underwood rep at SHOT as I am interested in these projectiles and asked him about the sale of Lehigh to WC and if that would affect their future use. He mentioned that Underwood was the largest buyer of the bullets by orders of magnitude. He thought the use of the bullets would continue which I think is a good thing.

    I have inquired a few times about FBI testing of the Lehigh projectiles in various loadings and have yet to see, hear or find any full tests done by anyone or published results. You are probably correct about cost being a big factor but if FBI test performance is used a round with no expansion gets hit hard enough in ranking to make it look like a failure since the FBI testing focuses on penetration and expansion not cutting, temporary stretch cavity or other factors. At least they do well for barriers in most cases. The FBI tests are good but they have stagnated in some regards and should be reconsidered for some modern ammunition, loadings,projectiles etc..

  5. #355
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    "I have inquired a few times about FBI testing of the Lehigh projectiles in various loadings and have yet to see, hear or find any full tests done by anyone or published results."
    Hmmmm--yup, monolithic fluted projectiles have been tested.....many times, over many years, including Lehigh.

    "You are probably correct about cost being a big factor but if FBI test performance is used a round with no expansion gets hit hard enough in ranking to make it look like a failure since the FBI testing focuses on penetration and expansion not cutting, temporary stretch cavity or other factors."
    Cost is not an issue. TC is generally not a factor for handgun projectiles. Cutting is important and is assessed--ie. sharp leading edge.

    "At least they do well for barriers in most cases."
    Yup.

    "The FBI tests are good but they have stagnated in some regards and should be reconsidered for some modern ammunition, loadings,projectiles etc.."
    Can't say I agree with that, as the test battery is constantly analyzed and validate against real world shooting incidents.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  6. #356
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    @DocGKR,

    I figure this is as good a place as any to ask this. There's been discussion of 9mm Lehigh penetrating bear skulls adequately, and therefore displacing .45 Lehighs for such uses. One thought I've had is that a bigger hammer has a better chance of breaking something with a less than optimal impact. (I've hit lots of things with hammers intending to break them, and it seems to work that way.) For example, if it hits at an angle, it seems like the heavier projectile would have better odds of breaking through with less deflection rather than being deflected enough that it fails to penetrate. Is this a valid hypothesis?

    A lot of the discussion has been along the lines that 9 and .45 are equivalent on target, so the shooting accuracy and # of chances in a limited time (potentially determined by rate of fire and the event timer rather than by magazine capacity) makes 9mm an obviously superior choice.

    I'm thinking that if a less-than-centered shot from the .45 has a greater chance of effectiveness, it slants that parameter toward the .45. Shooting accuracy and # of chances still goes to 9mm, but on overall balance, maybe it's more of a wash between them?

    Just wondering if you have any thoughts about the "bigger hammer breaks more better" hypothesis as applied to angled impact on bony structures.

    (I'm well aware that bullets do weird things and any single interaction of flesh and metal can be an outlier, so there are no guarantees.)
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  7. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Hmmmm--yup, monolithic fluted projectiles have been tested.....many times, over many years, including Lehigh.

    What was the overall summation of the Lehigh load? Where does it fall outside of the optimum to not be recommended?

    Cost is not an issue. TC is generally not a factor for handgun projectiles. Cutting is important and is assessed--ie. sharp leading edge.

    Is it possible that the FBI testing protocol cannot assess properly the effects of cutting from rotational forces of the bullet, ie. twisting? I mean I've read of several reports and pictures of impressive wounding and DRT results for these types of loads now that could be related to this effect which is escaping being proven in FBI type testing.

    Can't say I agree with that, as the test battery is constantly analyzed and validate against real world shooting incidents.

    What sort of shooting events are taking place with these monolithic bullets that have been documented to weigh against laboratory testing? It would seem there is little to none if these sorts of loads are not being issued in sufficient number to present data points.
    My questions are unbolded.

  8. #358
    This is another test where the Xtreme penetrators just don't seem to do an impressive job penetrating.

    40S&W 155 gr. FMJ penetrated much deeper than all-copper 357SIG and 357Mag.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBfhDQz6zM


    Until I see some evidence of extreme penetration, I'm not believing any other spectacular claims.

  9. #359
    I don't think the extreme penetrator was designed to penetrate more than FMJ. It is just the designation and design to penetrate deeper than Extreme Defender. Kind of like the difference between Critical Duty and Critical Defense rounds.

  10. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    I don't think the extreme penetrator was designed to penetrate more than FMJ. It is just the designation and design to penetrate deeper than Extreme Defender. Kind of like the difference between Critical Duty and Critical Defense rounds.
    Maybe so, but it's not how they promote it, or at least give the impression to the buyer.
    What you get is a hunting or special application self defense bullet that creates a larger permanent wound cavity coupled with exceptionally deep penetration.
    The flutes seem to create more drag at the cost of penetration.
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