Lehigh Defense: Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition

[Joe Mac]

Just tossing a thought on a drill: from a ready, 1 round 1second at 5, 2 rounds in 2 seconds at 7, all on a B8.

While shopping the Action Target site, I happened to spot this reduced-size bear target before a friend was leaving for a few weeks of remote camping. We did something similar, working between 5 and 25 yards. The picture lent itself to a sense of urgency..

@GJM, what do you think of the scoring area on this one?

https://shop.actiontarget.com/conten...ear-target.asp

[Clusterfrack]

While shopping the Action Target site, I happened to spot this reduced-size bear target before a friend was leaving for a few weeks of remote camping. We did something similar, working between 5 and 25 yards. The picture lent itself to a sense of urgency..

@GJM, what do you think of the scoring area on this one?

https://shop.actiontarget.com/conten...ear-target.asp

Unlike @GJM, I have thankfully not had to shoot a bear in self defense. But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely. I think the scoring region in that target is too generous. My understanding is that to hit the brain, aim between eyes and nose, below the blue “forehead” line in the second image.

[Caballoflaco]

For bear defense, maximum penetration depth does not seem to be the main requirement. All we need is a bullet that penetrates the skull without deflection, and goes far enough afterward to stop the animal.

9mm Lehigh/Underwood 115xp +p+ chronos at 1300fps from my P-07. I’m sticking with it.

I’ll start by saying that I’ve never even seen a bear in the wild, so this is not my wheelhouse. Just from reading about bear attacks it seems that a whole lot of them are handled with shots to the bears body either because the head wasn’t available as a target or the shooter just shot at the big brown thing. I could see it being really difficult if not impossible to get a head shot on a bear that is in the process of mauling someone. Quartering shots may be necessary as well.

When Shoemaker killed the grizz with his 3953 it was a neck shot followed up by shots to whatever vital area he could hit due to the bear moving so quickly he was unable to target the head.


https://www.americanhunter.org/conte...th-9mm-pistol/

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

[Stone]

I am fortunate enough to spend a lot of time on my land in northern Mn. My place is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I can’t help but laugh at all the internet logic and speculation as people come up with conclusions on what they would do "if" they ever encountered a bear in the wild. That’s not a rub against anyone here or this thread but just what I have read over the years on different forums and blogs. Especially that they think they need wonder bullets and a mini gun to drop the bear... First off, killing the bear should not be the goal or mind set, all you need to do is change its mind when it believes it is not afraid of you.

My rule is that if the bear is looking at me, it is not afraid of me and that can turn into a bad situation. When I see a bear, all I should see is his ass end running in the opposite direction which has been my experience to date. We only have black bears up here and not grizzly's so my experience is only with them. I also have a bear den up on my north end where a big female hunkers down every winter. It’s pretty cool because she usually walks by my cabin with her cubs every year or so, I haven't physically seen her do this but the tracks tell the story. There are tracks and scat all over my land and around the cabin, I guess you could say we have an uneasy truce between us since they don't frack with my cabin, outhouse or woodshed. In total I have had 3 encounters and all of them with the bear running away from me when we were within visual distance of each other. With all that said I have come up with a few things that I believe, keep my body parts in the places I have grown accustomed to them being. Every time I go out exploring/hiking I practice my draw/grip at least 20 or more times as I am walking through the woods picking a random target like a tree to be on target on as I draw. I also have steel targets set up around the land (which is actually part of my carbine course) so I occasionally squeeze off a few rounds after a draw, dead trees are also fair game. This also keeps me frosty on my moving and shooting skills.

Not bragging, but this has given me an extremely fast draw with follow through, AKA, muscle memory, draw/on target/with zero thought put into it. The grouse help me put this into action, if you know what I mean. Honestly, the best thing to have is situational awareness, your ears and eyes should always be on high alert, kind of like how the deer live their lives constantly being chased by predators. I do carry my G17 Gen4, spare mag, along with my knife the whole time I am up there. If I am fairly close to the cabin then it’s usually just my knife. I carry my EDC ammo up there (FTB- 135g+p) as I feel a bonded round will work well for what I want to accomplish.

So in conclusion, if the bear is looking at me then he is standing his ground and a few rounds are coming his way with zero thought on my end, if he advances then I have another 30 rounds to help him change his mind. If he turns and runs then I move on, bears are crazy fast, don’t under estimate their speed. In all reality, bears will smell and hear you long before you ever see them and will usually do their best to avoid you. Situational awareness, a fast draw and a plan to shoot instantaneously if he is standing fast, will serve me well if the situation ever arises. Remember, you don’t need to kill the bear, just change his mind. Its funny, I am more concerned with the mosquitos and gnats than I am with the bears, wolves, and mountain lions. I got eaten alive this year, just a real bad year for them with all the rain we have had…

[GJM]

Unlike @GJM, I have thankfully not had to shoot a bear in self defense. But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely. I think the scoring region in that target is too generous. My understanding is that to hit the brain, aim between eyes and nose, below the blue “forehead” line in the second image.

The Gunsite bear target is a circle containing just the nose and eyes. That seems pretty good size wise, although you have to visualize the position of the brain from different angles.

My defensive handgun plan is, if conditions permit, one warning shot, since a bear that runs off is ideal. After the warning shot, it is one shot center of bear, on the theory that hurting the bear may cause the bear to discontinue the attack. Assuming shots one and two don’t work, remaining shots try to penetrate the brain.

Long guns, like the gauge with Brenneke slugs, or heavy caliber rifles give you more options.

[entropy]

Sorry....couldn’t resist.

[the Schwartz]

Sorry....couldn’t resist.

Awww, poor Pooh. You big meanie.

[MickAK]

But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely

I don't know if that's the call to make.

The problem with preparing for bear on human interactions with a pistol aa opposed to human on human is there's a lot less data to draw from. We don't have the benefit of BBI's case records or all the other data. It's a lot of anecdotes and guessing.

What I've drawn from the anecdotes and guessing is bears often charge or continue to charge after getting hit once, rarely after getting hit multiple times. Bears don't know what guns are or getting shot is. They have to associate the noise and flash with the getting bit feeling to turn, hence why they snap at bullet wounds.

I'd aim, but precise would be a matter of distance and presentation. Trigger is getting pulled as soon as it can as often as it can and I'm moving laterally. I have a lot more faith in a bears ability to stop charging the noisy flashy painful thing than I do in my ability to hit the off button with a sidearm.

I’ll start by saying that I’ve never even seen a bear in the wild, so this is not my wheelhouse. Just from reading about bear attacks it seems that a whole lot of them are handled with shots to the bears body either because the head wasn’t available as a target or the shooter just shot at the big brown thing. I could see it being really difficult if not impossible to get a head shot on a bear that is in the process of mauling someone. Quartering shots may be necessary as well.

When Shoemaker killed the grizz with his 3953 it was a neck shot followed up by shots to whatever vital area he could hit due to the bear moving so quickly he was unable to target the head.

You gotta aim at something, heads as good as anything if you're actively being charged. After a hit brown blur is probably accurate.