Lehigh Defense: Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition

[WDR]

Then we should just be using cartridges from @DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Agree.

I long ago decided to just stick with my usual 9mm JHP loads when bumming around in the mountains. Given that I don't live in GRIZZ country, and even black bears are pretty rare to bump into here, I don't stress about it much. I think I am far more likely to bump into a cougar than a bear, and I feel like service caliber JHP should work just fine for either of those.

If defense against grizzlies was a primary concern, I'd be a lot more interested in copper solids or hard cast. I've almost bought a box of the 115gr 9mm Xtreme Penetrator bullets quite a few times... just to experiment with handloading for woods use, but every time I just cant justify the cost.

[GJM]

Then we should just be using cartridges from @DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Edited to add: it is all well and good if you hit the brain. The Iraq bet video convinced me plain old HST will work just fine. For a skull/brain hit.

If we miss the brain, then the greatest penetration possible is desirable and the HST seems a lot sadder sitting only 12” into a bear’s soft tissue.

If you shoot a warning shot, and the bear runs away, it doesn’t matter what load you are shooting.

If you shoot the bear anywhere in the body, and it runs away simply because it doesn’t like being shot, it doesn’t matter what load you are shooting.

If the warning and body shots fail to dissuade the bear, and you have a determined bear still coming at you, the most reliable way to stop the attack is to penetrate the bear’s skull and hit their brain. Assuming your marksmanship is good, it gets down to whether your bullet can penetrate the skull and reach the brain — that is a pass/fail scenario. For those of us that live and recreate around grizzly bears, trying to understand what bullet will or will not penetrate the skull is more than just a theoretical concern.

[Doc_Glock]

For those of us that live and recreate around grizzly bears, trying to understand what bullet will or will not penetrate the skull is more than just a theoretical concern.

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

[GJM]

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

Not likely to happen. When you shoot a grizzly bear in self defense in AK for example, you report it to the state, fill out a multi page questionnaire, turn the hide and skull over to the authorities, and are interviewed to determine whether your shoot was justified under the DLP (defense of life and property) law. When I defensively shot that brown bear on Kodiak with my .375 H&H, I wondered about skull penetration as I was also carrying a Glock 20, and thought that would be a very bad thing to have to explain as to why I was now doing science on the bear’s skull. Also, shooting a dead bear on the ground is different than shooting a live bear in a charging posture.

[JHC]

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

I have to believe that a steer's skull through it's forehead must be just as tough to penetrate as a big bears shot through the nostrils/mouth which is I understand the ideal front on aiming point.

Mas Ayoob used to kill beef cattle like this quite a bit at a slaughterhouse when testing different calibers and loads. That was back in the days of gun magazines. Not sure I've seen it on the internet. I don't recall an example of a service pistol caliber load failing to brain the steer.

[GJM]

What do the authorities do with the skulls?

In AK, they sell hide and skull at an annual auction.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5PP12839e

[GJM]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5PP12839e

This is a really good read. Compilation of many events, a number of which we have discussed on PF over the years.

As discussed previously, handguns have been slightly more effective on repelling bear attacks than long guns, and overall pretty successful regardless of caliber, because:

1) bear attacks tend to be close range fights where the reachout ability of the rifle is irrelevant and most long guns carried by sportsman don't lend themselves to rapidity of fire.

2) in tangles, handguns are handier and easier to use than a long gun.

3) fortunately, bears don't like to be shot, and many less than fatal wounds end the attack.

4) handguns are often on the person at the time of the attack, as opposed to the rifle or shotgun in the cabin, aircraft or against a tree at the side of the stream while fishing.

All that said, my choice is a 14 inch Benelli loaded with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs, backed up by a service pistol with penetrating ammo.

[cheby]

my choice is a 14 inch Benelli loaded with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs.

Do you think a shotgun is better than a rifle? (Disregarding the barrel length in this question). Just curious.

[GJM]

Do you think a shotgun is better than a rifle? (Disregarding the barrel length in this question). Just curious.

“Better” is usually a trick question — can you elaborate on your question?