Do Trijicon HD Night Sights shoot 'a bit' higher than stock M&P Sights?

[RJ]

Been shooting a while, and I've been thinking, I'm pretty consistent now in my POI. The thing is, my POI is typically a bit high, say a couple inches, from my point of aim.

I was looking at my Trijicon HD sights, in relation to the stock sights. I noticed that the stock sight heights were much more aligned, in relative height, than the heights of the Trijicon sights.

So, I collected some data on sight dimensions from around the web, and, using the Trijicon OEM data, did the following analysis (all using height above slide):

Stock S&W FS9 (unverified numbers, web search)

Front Sight
Width: 0.130, Height: 0.160 (from slide), 0.230 (total)

Rear Sight
Notch: 0.140, Height: 0.170 (from slide), 0.240

Trijicon HD SA137Y (Trijicon web site)

Front Sight
Blade Width (A) Blade Height (B) Overall Height (C)
0.144 in. 0.215 in. 0.282 in.

Rear Sight
Notch Width (D) Blade Height (E) Overall Height (F)
0.169 in. 0.292 in. 0.382 in.

1) Stock Angle over sight radius:

Tan( ) = (0.170 - 0.160) / 6.5" = 0.01" / 6.5"

( ) = 0.0881 deg

2) Trijicon HD over sight radius:

Tan( ) = (0.292" - 0.215") / 6.5" = 0.0770" / 6.5"

( ) = 0.6787 deg

3) Delta of sight radius angle, HD and Stock:

0.6787 deg - 0.0881 deg = 0.5906 deg

(Meaning HD sights heel the pistol up, inelevation, 0.5906 deg "more" the stock sights.)

4) The effect of 0.5906 deg over 7 yd / 21 ft / 252 inches:

Sin ( 0.5906 ) * 252" = 2.59"

(Meaning HD sights will shoot 2.59" higher than stock, all being equal.)

I consistently shoot almost exactly 2 to 3" high on my M&P FS9 at the range with my Trijicon HD sights.

I think it's the Trijicon HD sight height differences.

Am I wrong?

[TR675]

The HDs need to be fitted, so IME there is some difference between their POA/POI and that of the stock sights. On a 9c my POI went from dead nuts top of the front sight to the middle of the HD front site - IOW, I now "drive the dot" when I shoot, which is acceptable. I had to do extensive fitting to get the sights on so it's no surprise POI is a bit different. I would expect each gun and sight combo to be a bit different...3" high sounds off to me though. You may want to contact Trijicon.

Hope this makes sense.

[RJ]

The HDs need to be fitted, so IME there is some difference between their POA/POI and that of the stock sights. On a 9c my POI went from dead nuts top of the front sight to the middle of the HD front site - IOW, I now "drive the dot" when I shoot, which is acceptable. I had to do extensive fitting to get the sights on so it's no surprise POI is a bit different. I would expect each gun and sight combo to be a bit different...3" high sounds off to me though. You may want to contact Trijicon.

Hope this makes sense.

It does.

The HDs are very easy to pick up quickly. I also find the yellow better to see since I"m a little color blind.

But.

The math works, and it matches EXACTLY what I am seeing at the range, consistently, on POI.

The consistency of my high shots is just too weird. So, it seems to me that, in this case, it might "be the gun" instead of me heeling the pistol.

Not sure what to do about this. It just struck me as odd, hence the question.

Thanks.

[RJ]

This picture from July is typical. I shot sitting, and rested the pistol butt on the bench.

[RJ]

Right then, let me indulge in some more math.

Using the calculator on the Dawson Precision web site, it says I can calculate the front sight size change needed to zero in elevation, per:

Sight radius * impact distance / target distance.

For my situation, this works out to

6.5" * 2.59" / 252" = 0.0668"

Meaning I need a front sight that is 0.0668" higher than what I have now, to be zeroed. If I theoretically added this distance to the current Trijicon front sight height, to make it higher (i.e. to tilt the bore axis "down" a bit):

0.215" + 0.0668" = 0.2818"

Meaning, ideally, I need a Trijicon front sight that is 0.2818".

Recall the rear sight height of the HDs is 0.292". The difference would then be 0.0102".

The stock sight "difference" is 0.170" - 0.160" = 0.010".

Meaning, if I could make the Trijicon HD front site higher, I'd be back to the stock numbers, front to back.

Hmmmmmm....

[RJ]

PS I use sight picture #2, consistently.

[TR675]

You have the opposite issue I did then. I went from sight pic 2 to sight pic 3. It was good enough to place well in a match so I decided it was fine.

If you can get good results lollipop-ing with sight image 1 - and it looks like you might - and your OCD allows you ( ), you might try that.

[RJ]

You have the opposite issue I did then. I went from sight pic 2 to sight pic 3. It was good enough to place well in a match so I decided it was fine.

If you can get good results lollipop-ing with sight image 1 - and it looks like you might - and your OCD allows you ( ), you might try that.

Thanks. I'm thinking #3 might be right for the Trijicons.

As in, maybe, they design the HDs so that the 'correct' alignment is using the dots, and not the top of the sights. I guess it *is* a night sight, after all.

I sent an email off to Trijicon and asked them about it, will post back if they have any info on this.

[RJ]

I sent a note to customer service:

"Sir: I have a 11/13 build S&W M&P FS9mm with a set of Trijicon HD SA137Y night sights. For best accuracy, should I align the tops of the blades, or should I align the center of the dots? I seem to consistently shoot about 2.5" high of POA when I align the sight picture to the tops of the blades. Thanks for any clarification on this. V/R llando88"

To their credit, I got a prompt reply:

"Thank you for contacting Trijicon. Using the top of the blades should have worked. However, because all slides are different, POI/POA may vary. Try lining up the lamps. If it still does not work, please contact us for further assistance. Have a great day."

Unfortunately, I have indeed tried 'covering the dots'. However, I still shoot about 3" high at 7 yards.

From looking at the HD sight elevations above the slide, I guess my question boils down to this.

In comparison to the stock S&W sights, the rear Trijicon HD sight top edge I received in my kit is MUCH higher, in relation to the stock S&W rear, than the front HD sight is, in relation to the stock S&W front.

In other words, if you were to look at the stock sights, laid along the slide, next to the currently mounted HD sights, it is obvious that the gun will angle up slightly, if aligned to the tops of the HD sights, as compared to stock S&W sight setup.

Sooooo...while I like the brightness of the front HD sight, I am mulling over an option to take off the HDs, put the stock rear back on, and install a simple FO front sight that matches the stock height, and just get on with it.

I wonder what a used set of HDs would sell for for these days...

Any advice from the experts here would be greatly appreciated.

[JodyH]

One of my Sigs shot 6" high at 25. I had to buy individual sights from Ameriglo to get it to hit POA.
Things happen. It's more S&W's(Sig in my case) issue than Trijicon.