Bruce Gray VP9 Trigger Work.

[Bruce Gray]

Gentlemen, I am grateful for the opportunity to directly address the VP9, respond to your questions and comments, and clarify a few things.

Yes, it is true and my initial impression of the VP9's mechanics was not entirely positive. I saw some truly unusual mechanical gizmos in there that seemed a bit tenuous and needlessly complex to my eye. I hereby acknowledge that some of my initial impressions were due to the simple newness of the thing, as some folks here have suggested. I agree. I should not have jumped the gun, so to speak, in making what were certainly seen as rash and potentially even biased criticisms. That is very unlike me, and I hope I can be forgiven for it.

That said, the issue with the trigger bar spring bearing that some folks suggested is not an issue, is indeed an issue for some folks. Without question, improper handling of the spring unit during disassembly or reassembly can separate the bearing and cause the potential for a failure. OI have had two reports of such issues besides the problem we experienced with the pistol Rick wrote about as referenced in this thread. One was of a pistol bought second hand in which the bearing and spring separated, and the other was of a pistol that the owner detail stripped ostensibly while assessing it for duty use. One pistol was returned for service. I don't know the disposition of the other pistol.

This induced me to condemn the spring and bearing arrangement as less than optimal at best. I may have used sharper words. From an engineering serviceability standpoints, this strange little bearing is a liability in my opinion. Nothing I have seen thus far alters that view. I deeply respect Rick and his opinion of the VP9, and we each can articulate our reasoned opinions.

In many other respects, I have come around to a more enlightened view of this pistol via Ricks's excellent work on this platform. He has made specialized tools to simplify disassembly. He has devised very certain techniques to improve the action's smoothness and reliability. He's now able to bring consistency to these pistols, whereas as some of you here have observed, they tend to vary gun to gun quite a bit in trigger feel. If I may say with great pride and obvious bias, Rick has these things pretty much knocked, and he's brought me along.

For the record, Rick's focus is not on trigger pull reduction for duty / carry VP9's. It's not necessary nor wise to go appreciably below the 5.5 average weight as issued by HK. I would prefer 6.5 pounds for general duty issue in this platform. We do have a number of competitors who want to run the VP9, and his initial work probed the limits a bit with this application in mind. His duty work is centred upon cleaning up the characteristic drag and stalling felt in the typical VP9 trigger takeup, attenuating gross overtravel, and assuring improved firing pin safety lock integrity and function.

BY the same token, Rick was bitterly critical of the new SIG P320 at first blush. His comment was, "It's full of parts from an old VCR player." To be honest, I kind of thought the same thing at first. Since I'm proud to be able to state that our shop happens to be the leading shop for both SIG and HK handgun work, a natural rivalry exists between the HK and SIG wings of the business. However, I hope to make it plain that I wasn't "going after" the HK pistol out of some bias towards the new SIG product, or anything like that. Rick's posting on that other forum under my name did cause some strange exchanges, the true tenor of which were lost on the cold, impersonal computer screen.

In truth, we work on as many HK's each year as we do SIG pistols, and I personally have a history with each firm and their products going back 30 years or more. Our work with both, in addition to our high grade custom 1911's and other work, allow us to keep nine outstanding people in solid employment.

It is true that our company is involved with SIG Sauer on several projects. I disclose that one of these projects involves development of the P320.

Thank you for reading!

-Bruce Gray / Grayguns Inc. / Operation Specific Training / WCSO

[Bruce Gray]

By the way, let me please thank those of you who made some very generous comments here. I'm very proud of my Crew, and they work hard to make me look good. -B

[JM Campbell]

Bruce thank you joining the discussion, I hope we can see more of your insights here on the forum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Gentlemen, I am grateful for the opportunity to directly address the VP9, respond to your questions and comments, and clarify a few things.

Yes, it is true and my initial impression of the VP9's mechanics was not entirely positive. I saw some truly unusual mechanical gizmos in there that seemed a bit tenuous and needlessly complex to my eye. I hereby acknowledge that some of my initial impressions were due to the simple newness of the thing, as some folks here have suggested. I agree. I should not have jumped the gun, so to speak, in making what were certainly seen as rash and potentially even biased criticisms. That is very unlike me, and I hope I can be forgiven for it.

That said, the issue with the trigger bar spring bearing that some folks suggested is not an issue, is indeed an issue for some folks. Without question, improper handling of the spring unit during disassembly or reassembly can separate the bearing and cause the potential for a failure. OI have had two reports of such issues besides the problem we experienced with the pistol Rick wrote about as referenced in this thread. One was of a pistol bought second hand in which the bearing and spring separated, and the other was of a pistol that the owner detail stripped ostensibly while assessing it for duty use. One pistol was returned for service. I don't know the disposition of the other pistol.

This induced me to condemn the spring and bearing arrangement as less than optimal at best. I may have used sharper words. From an engineering serviceability standpoints, this strange little bearing is a liability in my opinion. Nothing I have seen thus far alters that view. I deeply respect Rick and his opinion of the VP9, and we each can articulate our reasoned opinions.

In many other respects, I have come around to a more enlightened view of this pistol via Ricks's excellent work on this platform. He has made specialized tools to simplify disassembly. He has devised very certain techniques to improve the action's smoothness and reliability. He's now able to bring consistency to these pistols, whereas as some of you here have observed, they tend to vary gun to gun quite a bit in trigger feel. If I may say with great pride and obvious bias, Rick has these things pretty much knocked, and he's brought me along.

For the record, Rick's focus is not on trigger pull reduction for duty / carry VP9's. It's not necessary nor wise to go appreciably below the 5.5 average weight as issued by HK. I would prefer 6.5 pounds for general duty issue in this platform. We do have a number of competitors who want to run the VP9, and his initial work probed the limits a bit with this application in mind. His duty work is centred upon cleaning up the characteristic drag and stalling felt in the typical VP9 trigger takeup, attenuating gross overtravel, and assuring improved firing pin safety lock integrity and function.

BY the same token, Rick was bitterly critical of the new SIG P320 at first blush. His comment was, "It's full of parts from an old VCR player." To be honest, I kind of thought the same thing at first. Since I'm proud to be able to state that our shop happens to be the leading shop for both SIG and HK handgun work, a natural rivalry exists between the HK and SIG wings of the business. However, I hope to make it plain that I wasn't "going after" the HK pistol out of some bias towards the new SIG product, or anything like that. Rick's posting on that other forum under my name did cause some strange exchanges, the true tenor of which were lost on the cold, impersonal computer screen.

In truth, we work on as many HK's each year as we do SIG pistols, and I personally have a history with each firm and their products going back 30 years or more. Our work with both, in addition to our high grade custom 1911's and other work, allow us to keep nine outstanding people in solid employment.

It is true that our company is involved with SIG Sauer on several projects. I disclose that one of these projects involves development of the P320.

Thank you for reading!

-Bruce Gray / Grayguns Inc. / Operation Specific Training / WCSO

Well said and welcome aboard!

[Savage Hands]

Welcome Bruce!

[Dagga Boy]

As one of the guys very critical of Bruce's post...........especially from a guy with a HK45C and a full house P7 from Grayguns, I appreciate Bruce's response and I am glad to see him here, and appreciate the response.

I am still of the opinion of not judging guns by people jacking them up. Seriously Bruce, how many Sig Trigger bar springs have you seen installed wrong? If I had a nickel for that one with my people, I could have bought several meals. I don't think that makes the classic P series guns lacking. I got a great deal on a like new P30 out of a store that was a "the guy just didn't like it" story. Turns out the "guy" had driven a pin through the firing pin spring. Why somebody would be driving these pins out on a new gun (and I am sure it wasn't with the correct metric punches), I don't know, but welcome to the American gun owner. How many P7's have been back to HK in bags. I am weird in that I actually like to go to the factory schools to hear from the trained guys how to do things correct that came from the engineers and designers. I will likely get to a VP 9 school at some point. I do know that some stuff in the VP9 is directional. Now, I realize that I am not even remotely close to even be allowed in the parking lot of Grayguns as far as gunsmithing and armorer skills, but I am still hesitant to pass too much judgement based on the experimental phase. I am also thankful that Rick is up there.......it has renewed my faith and I know who to send my VP9 to with the "Attention" sticker on it......

I have a VP9 with the not so hot trigger, but I shoot the gun so good I was hesitant to send it back to HK or do anything with. I think when I get a spare, my faith has been renewed enough that maybe I will send it to Rick for a duty tune. Thanks again to Bruce for manning up, and admitting that you may have jumped the gun a bit. That goes REALLY far with me. I am also glad to hear you are feeling better and look forward to seeing the return of the legend.

[Bruce Gray]

nyeti, I greatly appreciate your comments and your kind thoughts. I'm doing great, thank you.

I really like what Rick is doing with the VP9, and at the risk of indulging in an understandable conflict of interest, I know your faith in his work and knowledge is perfectly placed. He's certainly shown me some things I needed to see. And he no longer calls the P320 bad things. Harmony has been restored. :-)

-Bruce

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks again to Bruce for manning up, and admitting that you may have jumped the gun a bit. That goes REALLY far with me.

Me too. Appears that this forum has another asset.

[Bruce Gray]

nyeti and friends, a friend of ours messaged me on Facebook today to make me aware of another trigger bar spring bearing failure. If this is an authentic post, it makes four failures known to me, including the one Rick and I originally worked (on and which we likely precipitated the issue with.) This report is found on HK-Pro.com, and the OP includes a couple images showing the assembled frame with the spring clearly separated from the plastic bearing doodad. I pray that this cross-posting is deemed acceptable given the situation.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...g-failure.html

I'm not beating this horse, but if there is a legitimate problem I believe it should be addressed.

Nyeti, when we develop our armourer's course for this new offering, we'll keep you in mind now that we hopefully know how not to break it.
Thank you.

-Bruce / Disclosure: President, Grayguns Inc, a shop specializing in both SIG and HK handgun work, where our discussions over lunch have been pretty animated lately.

[LittleLebowski]

Bruce, don't worry about cross posting when relaying good info.