Titegroup, SNS Casting Bullets and my M&P40

[dsa]

Okie John;


I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp die for a while now and loved it so much I got one for every caliber I load. I may be using too tight a Crimp although when I pulled the bullets the coating was still intact even at the crimp.

A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

[SecondsCount]

I shot thousands of 155 grain lead bullets with the traditional lube ring through my M&P40 and could not believe how clean the bore was. I used Ramshot Silhouette which is a much slower powder and gave excellent accuracy. I dabbled with Winchester WST but started shooting more 9mm around that time and the M&P has been in the safe ever since.

[okie john]

A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

Yep.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that IF the die was screwed down too far, and it sounds like the OP might have that going on. Just use it to knock the bell off of the case mouth and you should be OK.


Okie John

[okie john]

I shot thousands of 155 grain lead bullets with the traditional lube ring through my M&P40 and could not believe how clean the bore was. I used Ramshot Silhouette which is a much slower powder and gave excellent accuracy.

I've been shooting traditional designs for over 40 years. I prefer Unique, which many people consider the moral equivalent of FFFg. But if you stick to full-power loads, it's neither smoky nor dirty. Bullet lube is the real culprit there.


Okie John

[rsa-otc]

A much more experienced reloader than I am told me that the Lee Factory Crimp die causes more problems than it solves. He stated that it can actually swage the bullet during the crimping process.

Actually I think dsa may have the answer. It's not that the die is screwed down to far, but that the Factory Crimp Die has a carbide sizing ring in the base/bottom to do a final sizing of the shell before the crimp which happens higher up in the die and is adjustable separate from the die depth it self. If Lee figured that people loading .40 S&W were going to shoot only jacketed ammo sized at .400 and set up this die that way then when it runs over the case it's swaging the bullet down to .400. That would explain why the rounds that I have pulled from my previously loaded ammo mic-ed out at .3995 to .4005 rather than the manufacturers spec-ed .401. The variance I had was probably due to the differing case wall thickness.

I probably didn't encounter this problem with the 38 & 45 dies because Lee knows at least half the re-loaders use lead bullets in their loads and accounted for that when they designed the dies.

I'm going to remove the Factory Crimp die and adjust the seating die to perform the crimping process and load up 50 rounds and see how that makes out Saturday as well.

Thanks again guys you probably saved me a lot of grief over the next month or so reducing my time shooting.

I'll let you know how I make out.

[rsa-otc]

Went to the range today with the following samples;
50 - Bayou Bullets 140 grain FPs, 3.4 grains of Titegroup that had been loaded using the Lee Factory Crimp Die and the same crimp as I had used previously with the problematic 180 grain loads.
50 - Bayou Bullets 140 grain FPs, 3.8 grains of Titegroup not using the Lee die and barely crimped.

Results :
With regards to the Factory Crimp Die inconclusive. Neither load showed signs of leading or smoke. It may have been because of the reduced charge on the one using the die or maybe even the reduced weight of the bullet. Either way I am just going to forego the factory crimp die in the future, the reloading process was much smoother without it.

Some other interesting observations:
The 140 FPs when you look at them closely have a slightly sharper nose profile then the 180s. This causes the bullet to hit the top of the chamber later in the feed process and the bullet is at a much sharper angle to the chamber resulting in a feedway failure about 60% of the time. I am going to have to load them to a longer COL compared to the 180s to alleviate this issue.

When I ran the 140s loaded with the same 3.8 grains of Titegroup as the 180s over the chronograph they were approximately 60-70 fps slower than the 180s. This is something I have not experienced before. When I checked the barrel for leading I noticed indications of incomplete powder burn. The heavier weight bullet must be holding the process up long enough to get a complete burn resulting in more velocity.

My next attempt will be using 4 grains of Titegroup, slightly longer COL (after checking the chambering in the barrel removed from the gun) and a slightly heavier crimp.

This has been an interesting and enjoyable process because I am learning new things. In the past with 38s, 45s and even the little bit of 9mm I have played with, I have pretty much been able to easily get what I want out of a round with much less fuss. The problem is that it has been equally frustrating because I am spending so much time futzing and it is impacting my shooting time. The whole reason I reload is to be able to afford to put more rounds down range.

[rsa-otc]

250 rounds of coated bullets down range today resulting in NO barrel leading. Just the way I like it.

150 Bayou Bullets 140 grain flat points & 106 Bayou Bullets 180 grain flat points.

At this time I have ditched the Lee Factory Crimp die and replaced it with a Hornady Tapper Crimp die with minimal crimp. Using just the seating die for crimping resulted in disruption of the coating since it was still pushing the bullet down while crimping. So for $25 shipped the Hornady die was worth it.

I have settled on the following loads for my use.

180 grain coated flat point over 3.0 of Titegroup resulting in 707 average velocity giving me a power factor of 127. The standard deviation for this load was 18.47. 3.2 grains of Titegroup actually gave me the best consistency with a standard deviation of 7.2 but the velocity jumped resulting in a PF of 142.

140 grain coated flat point over 4.2 grains of Titegroup results in a 908 average velocity coming in at a 127 power factor. The standard deviation on this load was 30.22. As I noted previously my gun requires me to load these a tad long for proper feeding.

I am going with the 180 grain loading going forward as my predominant ammo for the following reasons. To me the 180 shoots softer than the 140 grain bullets even though they are virtually the same PF. More consistent load with a lower standard deviation. While the 140 grain bullets cost less, powder is in short supply and the 180 grain load uses 1.2 grains less powder to get where I need to be. I got a 2 inch group out of the 180 bullets at 25 yards so they are plenty accurate.

Thanks everyone for your help.

[LHS]

For the record, this kind of post is awesome. I'm a neophyte reloader, and seeing other folks have some tribulations and get good information on how to deal with it gives me a lot of information on my own reloading issues. Thanks for everything!

[ranger]

There are a number of posts on forums oriented toward competition pistol (USPSA-IDPA) that postulate that Titegroup is not the best choice for lead or coated lead bullets because it yields more smoke with lead or coated. Titegroup is a very popular powder for jacketed bullets however.

[rsa-otc]

There are a number of posts on forums oriented toward competition pistol (USPSA-IDPA) that postulate that Titegroup is not the best choice for lead or coated lead bullets because it yields more smoke with lead or coated. Titegroup is a very popular powder for jacketed bullets however.

No doubt. Titegroup burns extremely hot and it is probably not ideal. My preferred powder at this point is Clays or Clay Dot. During this powder shortage I was only able to come across this 8 lb can of Titegroup group. So far I have had no issues with my 38 special loads which I tend to load towards the top end of the charts or my 45s which are loaded towards the middle to low end of the charts. I must say I have found Titegroup to be very consistent yielding low standard deviations when you find the sweet spot.

Now that I have the problems worked out with my 40 S&W loads I am not seeing any powder related issues at this point. I did have a round that would not chamber at the match yesterday that messed me up. Shame on me for not chamber checking my loads before a match, l had gotten out of the habit when I started using the Lee Factory Crimp die.

So far the smoke has not been problematic for me.

I will be posting a video of one of the stages @ yesterday's match in my training log once the results are posted. You can judge for yourself concerning any smoke issues.