Titegroup, SNS Casting Bullets and my M&P40

[rsa-otc]

Anyone who has read my posts on reloading know I have been a proponent of coated bullets; particularly the Hi Tech Coating offered by Bayou Bullets and SNS Casting. I have always had superior results from both manufactures. Loadings have been, 9mm, 38 special and 45 acp using Bullseye, Clays, Red Dot and Titegroup powders.

Until now.

I recently purchased an M&P40 Full size and ordered up 500 - 180 grain .401 bullets from SNS casting. My plan was to use a light 40 S&W load in IDPA SSP until I could acquire a 9mm conversion barrel for my new toy. My first loading was 3.8 grains of Titegroup (.2 grain below the book starting charge). During my first session I chronographed this load at 903 FPS for a power factor of 162. A tad hotter than I wanted, but as a starting load I would take it. Problem being that it is extremely smoky and severely leads the 2nd half of the barrel. After cleaning the barrel (What a PITA) I tried again at this month IDPA match. Again smoky and heavily leaded the barrel, this time to the point that the 2nd half of the barrel looked like a smooth bore after only 90 rounds. The only time I have seen a barrel that bad was when someone shot soft lead reloads out of a Glock. By the time I got to the man on man Dueling tree match I lost in the third round to the eventual winner. In that round I couldn’t hit ONE of the 6 inch plates at 10 yards. After three days of effort and I am still removing lead from the barrel. A Lewis Lead Remover for .40 in on its way from Brownells.

I have previously used 3.8 of Titegroup under 160 Grain 38 special and 230 grain 45 acp SNS Casting bullets with good results and no issues.

I have inspected the barrel and see no issues that would lead me to believe it was a barrel issue.

I don’t know maybe SNS got a bad batch of coating? Maybe the dynamics of the cylinder gap on the revolver and the larger case capacity & bullet base on the 45 make the difference.

I now have in house 140 grain Bayou bullets to try, I’ll let you know after Saturday how they make out.

[Trooper224]

I'm a big proponent of Hi Tech coating as well. In 9mm I use a 124 grain coated SNS bullet over 3.6 grains of either Bullseye or Titegroup to good effect. Sounds like the bullet might be undersize. Maybe going with a slightly larger one would help?

[Alpha Sierra]

You might want to slug the barrel to see if the ID grows as you go out to the muzzle. If it does, you lose obturation, get gas blow by, and burn off the coating/strip the lead off the bullet.

That's my theory anyway.

All the coated bullet mfgs I have spoken to cast their bullets in the 16 - 18 Brinell range and trust the coating to prevent leading. Normally, that would be too hard of an alloy to properly obturate and seal at anything under magnum cartridge pressures.

[rsa-otc]

According to SNS I should be able to push these things to 1500 fps with no issues. I'm going to mic the bullets tonight when I get home and see what I get as well.

[Alpha Sierra]

You should re-check the SSP rules, because I believe caliber conversions are not allowed.

[rsa-otc]

True, at a sanctioned match I would have to run the 40 S&W barrel for SSP or run in ESP with the 9mm. Our local clubs don't push that rule hard and will let me shoot the 9mm barrel as long as that is the only change. Truth be told if I get the load selection and springs right I should be able to come up with the 125 PF in 40 S&W. The only reason I am making the switch from CDP is to reduce some of the wear and tear on my arms and shoulders.

[m91196]

Everyone around these parts uses something slower burning for their coated bullets. Also make sure your not over crimping. Solo, N320, WST are common favorites, although these may be leftover thoughts from the moly bullet heyday I like titegroup for its accuracy and efficiency in 9mm plated it does get hot

[okie john]

When you start talking about cast bullets, a lot of variables have to be brought into harmony: bullet hardness, lube, pressure, velocity, diameter, etc. A mismatch with any of those could cause your woes. Several things stand out for me as areas to investigate:

1. Your charge is below the minimum. Everyone knows not to go beyond the max, but sometimes starting below the minimum can be just as problematic. The fact that you’re getting a lot of smoke with a powder known for burning cleanly make me think that you’re not getting a complete burn. Add to that the fact that lead bullets have a lower co-efficient of friction than jacketed bullets, which lowers pressures and makes this worse. To address this, load a few dozen rounds with a charge of Titegroup that’s halfway between minimum and maximum and see how they work.
2. Try a different powder. The 38 Special and 45 ACP are known to work pretty well within a pretty wide range of pressures, while the 40 S&W is and always has been a pretty hot number. There may be ways to take it into the lower end of the spectrum, and Titegroup may not be one of them.
3. Coating problems could be the culprit. It might not hurt to call the manufacturer and see if they have any wisdom. Their home page does say that you need to be careful with belling case mouths and with crimping, so that’s a good place to start. I’ve found that a Lee Factory Crimp Die can be a great help with this.
4. Your pistol’s bore diameter may be a little bigger than spec. Cast bullets should be a minimum of 0.001” over groove diameter for best results. Going 0.002” or 0.003” over might even be required. I've done that with a Glock that keyholed with 0.356" bullets at 25 yards. With a 0.358" slug, it now shoots as well as it does with Hornady XTPs.
5. To clean heavily-leaded bores, I use a piece of a Chore Boy pot scrubber wrapped around an old Glock nylon bore brush. http://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy%C2%A...+boy+scrubbers It will get a barrel clean in minutes without a lot of work.

Keep us posted on your progress.


Okie John

[NETim]

Re: The Chore Boy trick. Ensure the material is indeed copper. Some are copper coated steel. This trick does work well for removing lead.

[rsa-otc]

Okie John;

All good hints and things I need to look into.

I do bell the case mouth so as not to scrape off the coating. I pulled two bullets from my loaded rounds to see if the coating was intact and it seemed to be.

I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp die for a while now and loved it so much I got one for every caliber I load. I may be using too tight a Crimp although when I pulled the bullets the coating was still intact even at the crimp.

When I mic-ed the to bullets I pulled they seemed a little small at .400 and .4005. At one point I even had a reading of .3995. When I measured a couple of the Bayou Bullets 140 grain bullets they came in consistently .401 and .4015. All readings were taken with the micrometer and bullets sitting on a perfectly flat surface so the micrometer was perpendicular to the bullet.

Again thanks for the hints I have loaded up some of the Bayou Bullets and will try them this weekend. I'll let you know how I fair.