Tactics Against Active Shooters

[ST911]

Sorry, been to enough shot and stabbed people calls (and seen the deed done in person enough) that I will go with OragamiAK on the "potentially 5 second" side and I am not even counting on that. Some more, some less, and some are simply freaks.

When talking about the effect of massive hemorrhage or tissue trauma, there are also several points in the process to consider. The patient will progress through benchmarks of distraction, motivation to continue a task, sensory/motor function, consciousness, and ultimate arrest. The only certain answer to how long each takes is, "it depends."

[Mr_White]

5 seconds?

In reality it's more like 1 second. If the jugular vien or carotid artery is severed or even punctured, the loss of blood, especially blood flow to the brain is noticeable in 1 second. By 5 seconds the person is unconscious and in ten seconds is dead.

It’s worth noting that training doctrine is generally oriented toward dealing with determined adversaries who won’t stop until physiologically forced to. No doubt there are many who will factually stop earlier than that, but they aren’t the ones to build doctrine around.

Here is where I get a potential minimum incapacitation time of 5 seconds based on blood loss:

For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

That’s posted at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

I believe it’s pretty settled science. No doctor I’ve ever discussed this with has disagreed.

Sorry, been to enough shot and stabbed people calls (and seen the deed done in person enough) that I will go with OragamiAK on the "potentially 5 second" side and I am not even counting on that. Some more, some less, and some are simply freaks.

I will celebrate our agreement later by dry practicing!

I’m not counting on 5 seconds either. That’s the potential minimum physiologically. Might be a lot longer than that too.

[Stengun]

Howdy,

Seems to me that some animal grazing at the food trough and a human being engaged in an activity worth being shot for is not an apples-to-apples comparison.

It's still a living and breathing creature. Besides, pigs are used for medical experiment because they internal organs are very similar to humans, that's why I choose pigs instead of goats or steers.

Animal grazing at the food trough? Gee, if I'm not mistaken, Humans are animals and the two LV cops were grazing at the food trough when they were ambushed.

Pretty simple.

Paul

[GJM]

I would like to think they only appeared unarmed, but believe you probably accounted for that possibility.

Yes.

[Stengun]

Howdy nyeti,

Sorry, been to enough shot and stabbed people calls (and seen the deed done in person enough) that I will go with OragamiAK on the "potentially 5 second" side and I am not even counting on that. Some more, some less, and some are simply freaks.

Yeah, me too, except I was there when it happened, not afterward and I've seen enough to know that you're wrong.

Back in the late 90's in No. Little Rock and saw a 3 or 4 "working girls" attack a homeless man in a vacant lot down the street from a rent house I was painting as a side job. One of the working girls ended up grabbing a broken beer bottle and she stabbed the man in the neck. The man fell to the ground within a second of being stabbed. I had already stepped out into the street and was running toward them when this happened and buy the time I got there, about 6 seconds AFTER he was stabbed, he was limp as a noodle and by the 10 second mark he was dead.

I know he was dead because I had my hand on his throat where he was stabbed and I could no longer feel a pulse.

Sure, he might have had some brain function left, and if a med team was standing there with several units of blood he might have survived but from a tactical standpoint at the 5 second mark it was "Game Over" for him.

In the military I/we were trained when you used a knife that the main target was the brachial artery and median nerve which runs lateral to the artery. I always called it "chicken wing" because you were basically try to cutoff their arm like it was a chicken wing. After slicing through the artery and nerve ( This makes the arm useless and since I'm right handed I preferred the right arm ) you could either hold them while they did the "Death Dance" are stab them repeatedly in the armpit area while they danced. After holding them for 6 to 10 seconds we would lower their dead body to the floor.

I'm not claiming to have killed anyone this way but did receive the training and have seen it done before.

Even with the brachial artery, at the 6 second mark it's "Game Over".

I understand that my real life training and experiences don't compare to playing "Call of Duty" on the PS or wii, which I've never played, so I have to go by my on personal experiences.

Paul

[JHC]

There is there a meaningful difference in the rate of incapacitation from exsanguination from the throat's major vessels being severed versus vessels in the chest being cut or punctured by gunfire?

Does massive neck/throat trauma pack heavier psychological stop effects than damage inside the chest one may not know has even occurred yet?

[David Armstrong]

5 seconds?

In reality it's more like 1 second. If the jugular vien or carotid artery is severed or even punctured, the loss of blood, especially blood flow to the brain is noticeable in 1 second. By 5 seconds the person is unconscious and in ten seconds is dead.

That's an awfully big "if" in there. Lots of territory in that high thoracic area that aren't going to give the quick bleedout one might hope for. Slitting a throat is a whole lot different from shoving an icepick into the throat.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Back in the late 90's in No. Little Rock and saw a 3 or 4 "working girls" attack a homeless man in a vacant lot....
...buy the time I got there, about 6 seconds AFTER he was stabbed, he was limp as a noodle and by the 10 second mark he was dead.

I submit that there are quite a few things that would kill your average malnourished/addict homeless person before they'd kill a reasonably healthy individual. I'm also not sure exactly how arriving in 6 seconds proves conclusively that he was physiologically incapacitated after 5 seconds.

In the military I/we were trained when you used a knife that the main target was the brachial artery and median nerve which runs lateral to the artery.

I suspect that "person taken by surprise that has been fatally stabbed in throat and is currently being restrained while spraying gore" is in a different place than "fully engaged bad dude that may/may not even be aware he's been shot."

I don't think that people in this thread are arguing that someone can't die/give up earlier, but rather that it's not smart to rely on an upper thoracic gunshot wound - even one that will prove fatal - to take down a bad guy immediately.

I understand that my real life training and experiences don't compare to playing "Call of Duty" on the PS or wii, which I've never played, so I have to go by my on personal experiences.

I would absolutely pay money to watch nyeti play Call of Duty online, provided he was given a functioning headset/mic to communicate with the other players.

[Shellback]

Yeah, me too, except I was there when it happened, not afterward and I've seen enough to know that you're wrong...

I understand that my real life training and experiences don't compare to playing "Call of Duty" on the PS or wii, which I've never played, so I have to go by my on personal experiences.

You may want to slow your roll. Just a friendly reminder.

[ST911]

The human body is amazing. I've seen some some massive traumatic injury in which the pt shouldn't have been conscious and functional to the extent they were. Then others in which there's no way the pt should have had the level of disability or mortality that they did.