Perhaps…but granting retired LEOs a bit more leeway in "prohibited places" is the same concept as granting extra consideration (in anything regulated) to returning veterans.Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra
Or are you against that too?
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Perhaps…but granting retired LEOs a bit more leeway in "prohibited places" is the same concept as granting extra consideration (in anything regulated) to returning veterans.
Or are you against that too?
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Perhaps, but LEOSA doesn't do that. It's a common misconception amongst a lot of LEO's I've talked to about this that LEOSA gets them out of state prohibited places, it does to some, but not all, and the federal GFSZA.
Are there any state/locals that do anything with the GFSZA, and at what threshold? Most seem to consider it or refer cases only when other criminal activity is present.
Even more go "huh?" when I ask about it, unless they have a companion state or local law.
الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب
I know. Under the auspices of HR218, it specifically states that one must obey the provisions (local, state, federal) of any prohibited areas that would normally be ignored by an active-duty cop; IOW, don't carry in those if you're not on the job.
What Alpha Sierra seemed to be saying is that a retired cop should be treated no differently from your average CCW-permitted citizen. That ignores the fact that cops, active or retired, are held to a higher standard when things go bad. The flip side of that is that said cops can reasonably be expected to not go full retard at the drop of a hat, due to their training and experience. If they do, you can be sure the court will come down harder on them.
To give a specific example… I do not dis-arm myself when picking up or dropping off my granddaughters at school. That's a violation of the "gun-free zone", since I'm no longer an active, commissioned LEO. But the chances of me getting arrested for it, should I be discovered, are slim (around here, anyway).
What we're talking about here is "officer discretion". As a retiree, I follow the same code of professionalism as I did when active. Having been held to a higher standard than my fellow citizens for almost 30 years, I now feel I should be cut a little slack (as long as I hold up my end; i.e., don't act retarded).
Some folks are annoyed by this. To me, its a little perk I earned the hard way.
Donning my nomex and kevlar now…
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IANAL
The problem in Ga.'s criminal trespass code is that there is no mention in the code section on exactly what constitutes notice. Verbally being ask to vacate the premises by the owner, agent of the owner, an authorized representative of the owner is certainly notice,....................... but is some little sticker with a gun and line through it in the window sufficient notice? We don't know, because as far as we know there is no case law on this actual issue.
Here is the Trespass Code in it's entirety. Part 2 and 3 is what we are dealing with.
Ga. seems hesitant to pass any "Gun Buster" signage law, which I like as a GWCL holder.O.C.G.A. § 16-7-21
Criminal trespass
(a) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally damages any property of another without consent of that other person and the damage thereto is $500.00 or less or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person.
(b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:
(1) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person for an unlawful purpose;
(2) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant that such entry is forbidden; or
(3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person or within the vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart.
(c) For the purposes of subsection (b) of this Code section, permission to enter or invitation to enter given by a minor who is or is not present on or in the property of the minor's parent or guardian is not sufficient to allow lawful entry of another person upon the land, premises, vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft owned or rightfully occupied by such minor's parent or guardian if such parent or guardian has previously given notice that such entry is forbidden or notice to depart.
(d) A person who commits the offense of criminal trespass shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(e) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally defaces, mutilates, or defiles any grave marker, monument, or memorial to one or more deceased persons who served in the military service of this state, the United States of America or any of the states thereof, or the Confederate States of America or any of the states thereof, or a monument, plaque, marker, or memorial which is dedicated to, honors, or recounts the military service of any past or present military personnel of this state, the United States of America or any of the states thereof, or the Confederate States of America or any of the states thereof if such grave marker, monument, memorial, plaque, or marker is privately owned or located on land which is privately owned.
The Ga. Legislature has always tried really hard to protect/maintain Private property rights when it comes to guns.
Here is the code section on carrying in unauthorized places:
O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127. Carrying weapons in unauthorized locations
(a) As used in this Code section, the term:
(1) "Courthouse" means a building occupied by judicial courts and containing rooms in which judicial proceedings are held.
(2) "Government building" means:
(A) The building in which a government entity is housed;
(B) The building where a government entity meets in its official capacity; provided, however, that if such building is not a publicly owned building, such building shall be considered a government building for the purposes of this Code section only during the time such government entity is meeting at such building; or
(C) The portion of any building that is not a publicly owned building that is occupied by a government entity.
(3) "Government entity" means an office, agency, authority, department, commission, board, body, division, instrumentality, or institution of the state or any county, municipal corporation, consolidated government, or local board of education within this state.
(4) "Parking facility" means real property owned or leased by a government entity, courthouse, jail, prison, or place of worship that has been designated by such government entity, courthouse, jail, prison, or place of worship for the parking of motor vehicles at a government building or at such courthouse, jail, prison, or place of worship.
(b) Except as provided in Code Section 16-11-127.1 and subsection (d) or (e) of this Code section, a person shall be guilty of carrying a weapon or long gun in an unauthorized location and punished as for a misdemeanor when he or she carries a weapon or long gun while:
(1) In a government building;
(2) In a courthouse;
(3) In a jail or prison;
(4) In a place of worship, unless the governing body or authority of the place of worship permits the carrying of weapons or long guns by license holders;
(5) In a state mental health facility as defined in Code Section 37-1-1 which admits individuals on an involuntary basis for treatment of mental illness, developmental disability, or addictive disease; provided, however, that carrying a weapon or long gun in such location in a manner in compliance with paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of this Code section shall not constitute a violation of this subsection;
(6) On the premises of a nuclear power facility, except as provided in Code Section 16-11-127.2, and the punishment provisions of Code Section 16-11-127.2 shall supersede the punishment provisions of this Code section; or
(7) Within 150 feet of any polling place, except as provided in subsection (i) of Code Section 21-2-413.
(c) A license holder or person recognized under subsection (e) of Code Section 16-11-126 shall be authorized to carry a weapon as provided in Code Section 16-11-135 and in every location in this state not listed in subsection (b) or prohibited by subsection (e) of this Code section; provided, however, that private property owners or persons in legal control of private property through a lease, rental agreement, licensing agreement, contract, or any other agreement to control access to such private property shall have the right to exclude or eject a person who is in possession of a weapon or long gun on their private property in accordance with paragraph (3) of subsection (b) of Code Section 16-7-21, except as provided in Code Section 16-11-135. A violation of subsection (b) of this Code section shall not create or give rise to a civil action for damages.
(d) Subsection (b) of this Code section shall not apply:
(1) To the use of weapons or long guns as exhibits in a legal proceeding, provided such weapons or long guns are secured and handled as directed by the personnel providing courtroom security or the judge hearing the case;
(2) To a license holder who approaches security or management personnel upon arrival at a location described in subsection (b) of this Code section and notifies such security or management personnel of the presence of the weapon or long gun and explicitly follows the security or management personnel's direction for removing, securing, storing, or temporarily surrendering such weapon or long gun; and
(3) To a weapon or long gun possessed by a license holder which is under the possessor's control in a motor vehicle or is in a locked compartment of a motor vehicle or one which is in a locked container in or a locked firearms rack which is on a motor vehicle and such vehicle is parked in a parking facility.
(e) (1) A license holder shall be authorized to carry a weapon in a government building when the government building is open for business and where ingress into such building is not restricted or screened by security personnel. A license holder who enters or attempts to enter a government building carrying a weapon where ingress is restricted or screened by security personnel shall be guilty of a misdemeanor if at least one member of such security personnel is certified as a peace officer pursuant to Chapter 8 of Title 35; provided, however, that a license holder who immediately exits such building or immediately leaves such location upon notification of his or her failure to clear security due to the carrying of a weapon shall not be guilty of violating this subsection or paragraph (1) of subsection (b) of this Code section. A person who is not a license holder and who attempts to enter a government building carrying a weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(2) Any license holder who violates subsection (b) of this Code section in a place of worship shall not be arrested but shall be fined not more than $100.00. Any person who is not a license holder who violates subsection (b) of this Code section in a place of worship shall be punished as for a misdemeanor.
Georgia law requires specific notice for criminal trespass to apply. A sign in and of itself does not qualify.
A no weapons sign in and of itself does not make a place off limits in GA.
An argument can be made that if if you saw such a sign, recognized its meaning, and then ignored it and admitted to doing so that probable cause for criminal trespass could be reached.
I discussed this very issue with our ADA as well as a former prosecutor turned defense lawyer recently, and none of us could find an appeals court ruling upholding a sign in and of itself as being sufficient notice for a criminal trespass conviction. We were doing so to formulate an advisory and not to make a case.
Whether or not a person has a GWCL, is exempt, or is carrying under LEOSA, a private party can invoke criminal trespass on a carrier who refuses to leave after being told to do so. The court of appeals has upheld conditional restrictions.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
Now that is a clear and concise answer. Thank you very much.
A perk you earned the hard way? You must be joking. Whatever you earned you were paid for already. And being held to a higher standard while you were a cop is another joke. Your fellow citizens don't get away with half the things that cops get away with. You're living in a fantasy world and I sincerely hope you get busted for breaking the law as your fellow citizens would.I know. Under the auspices of HR218, it specifically states that one must obey the provisions (local, state, federal) of any prohibited areas that would normally be ignored by an active-duty cop; IOW, don't carry in those if you're not on the job.
What Alpha Sierra seemed to be saying is that a retired cop should be treated no differently from your average CCW-permitted citizen. That ignores the fact that cops, active or retired, are held to a higher standard when things go bad. The flip side of that is that said cops can reasonably be expected to not go full retard at the drop of a hat, due to their training and experience. If they do, you can be sure the court will come down harder on them.
To give a specific example… I do not dis-arm myself when picking up or dropping off my granddaughters at school. That's a violation of the "gun-free zone", since I'm no longer an active, commissioned LEO. But the chances of me getting arrested for it, should I be discovered, are slim (around here, anyway).
What we're talking about here is "officer discretion". As a retiree, I follow the same code of professionalism as I did when active. Having been held to a higher standard than my fellow citizens for almost 30 years, I now feel I should be cut a little slack (as long as I hold up my end; i.e., don't act retarded).
Some folks are annoyed by this. To me, its a little perk I earned the hard way.
Donning my nomex and kevlar now…
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US Navy Veteran
1961-1965
Ah, another disgruntled citizen. I'm surprised it took this long for that sort of reply.
Held to a higher standard is a joke? YOU are the one living in a fantasy world, bud.
Have a large day…
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I have no clue whether Starbucks or Target post signs now, but let's say that you carried into one of those establishments. Regardless of whether you saw a sign or not, wouldn't prior notice of their intentions due to widespread news media coverage (or even discussion on forums like this one) suffice? Hard to prove, yes. However, if I recall the language, at least in the case of Target, they "respectfully" asked customers not to carry firearms into their stores. Hardly seems like a strong prohibition. Still, I just go elsewhere... not looking to be a trial balloon, so to speak.
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